Vaughan Williams: 4-8.4.16, 8-12.2.21 & 2-27.5.22

[Rolmill]

It's in this section that the problem occurs. The most helpful conclusion I think is that unless you have a very clear acoustic nobody is going to be able to make out what words you're singing anyway.

Indeed - I have sung it many times (always as printed) and not even noticed the discrepancy . I find I have six recordings on CD, just listened to them all and they all (so far as I can hear, which isn't very clearly in some cases) also go with the printed text. I don't suppose there is any way of knowing whether the discrepancy was intentional on V-W's part.

[Pulcinella]

It's in this section that the problem occurs. The most helpful conclusion I think is that unless you have a very clear acoustic nobody is going to be able to make out what words you're singing anyway.

That was our music director's comment yesterday!
He was going to listen to some recordings but doubted that he'd be able to hear what was actually sung!

I think I have only one recording on my shelves (though I could probably stream others): Christ Church Oxford, under Darlington. I'll give it a spin over the weekend.

Thanks to others for their comments: I'm glad we're not alone.

[Andrew Slater]

Is any learned person hereabouts familiar with the Three Shakespeare Songs?
We (choir) are currently rehearsing Over hill, over dale for our July concert.

The text is given in LiederNet as

Over hill, over dale,
Thorough bush, thorough briar,
Over park, over pale,
Thorough flood, thorough fire
I do wander everywhere.

Swifter than the moon's sphere;
And I serve the fairy queen,
To dew her orbs upon the green.
The cowslips tall her pensioners be;
In their gold coats spots you see;
Those be rubies, fairy favours,
In those freckles live their savours:
I must go seek some dew-drops here,
And hang a pearl in every cowslip's ear.

That's bad enough to get your tongue around at the speed it goes, but when RVW then changes the sequence to
hill, dale, flood, fire, park, pale, flood, fire
we wondered if there was a mistake in the OUP score.

In fact, from residual pencil markings, it looked as if a previous choir which had borrowed the copies had changed the words.

Any and all comments welcome!

For a definitive answer you could try contacting the Vaughan Williams Society's Information Officer, linked at the bottom of their website's home page.

[Pulcinella]

For a definitive answer you could try contacting the Vaughan Williams Society's Information Officer, linked at the bottom of their website's home page.

Excellent idea.

[Maclintick]

I found today’s episode particularly illuminating

It had never occurred to me that RVW was 3 years older than his temporary teacher Ravel… nor had the similarities between Bredon Hill and Vallée des Cloches ever struck me before. And interesting to hear two early orchestral pieces for the first time (with useful stylistic pointers by Dr Owen).

Yes- both the Serenade & Harnham Down were new to me, but, as with the 1st Quartet, which I also didn't know, neither overstayed their welcome. Thanks to Dr. Owen. Like you, I'd not made the connection between Bredon Hill & La Vallée des Cloches but always thought RVW must have known La Mer when composing the Sea Symphony -- the influence of Jeux de Vagues on The Waves being blindingly obvious.

[Edgy 2]

I found today’s episode particularly illuminating

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016rsx

not least thanks to DM’s guest https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/p...owen-ceri.aspx

It had never occurred to me that RVW was 3 years older than his temporary teacher Ravel… nor had the similarities between Bredon Hill and Vallée des Cloches ever struck me before. And interesting to hear two early orchestral pieces for the first time (with useful stylistic pointers by Dr Owen).

Radio 3 at its best.

[Edgy 2]

Indeed - I have sung it many times (always as printed) and not even noticed the discrepancy . I find I have six recordings on CD, just listened to them all and they all (so far as I can hear, which isn't very clearly in some cases) also go with the printed text. I don't suppose there is any way of knowing whether the discrepancy was intentional on V-W's part.

Same here

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes- both the Serenade & Harnham Down were new to me, but, as with the 1st Quartet, which I also didn't know, neither overstayed their welcome. Thanks to Dr. Owen. Like you, I'd not made the connection between Bredon Hill & La Vallée des Cloches but always thought RVW must have known La Mer when composing the Sea Symphony -- the influence of Jeux de Vagues on The Waves being blindingly obvious.

The very point I've been making.

[Nick Armstrong]

always thought RVW must have known La Mer when composing the Sea Symphony -- the influence of Jeux de Vagues on The Waves being blindingly obvious.

I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that the "friend" referred to, who had commented that it sounded as if its composer had taken tea with Debussy, was in fact Elgar?

Sea as well as tea with Debussy then…

[Maclintick]

Sea as well as tea with Debussy then…

Yes -- at the Grand Hotel in Eastbourne, most likely....

[cloughie]

Yes, S_A, fascinating stuff. I loved the “tea with Debussy” comment which I’d never heard before.

(Thread title expanded to include this impressive month-long survey)

…and the pie and stout that Ravel enjoyed!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes- both the Serenade & Harnham Down were new to me, but, as with the 1st Quartet, which I also didn't know, neither overstayed their welcome. Thanks to Dr. Owen. Like you, I'd not made the connection between Bredon Hill & La Vallée des Cloches but always thought RVW must have known La Mer when composing the Sea Symphony -- the influence of Jeux de Vagues on The Waves being blindingly obvious.

There’s an almost note -for- note 5 note quote from the slow movement of Debussy’s string quartet in RVW’s In The Fen Country. It’s rounded off with three chromatic notes straight out of L’Apres Midi. It must be a tribute of sorts.

[Serial_Apologist]

There’s an almost note -for- note 5 note quote from the slow movement of Debussy’s string quartet in RVW’s In The Fen Country. It’s rounded off with three chromatic notes straight out of L’Apres Midi. It must be a tribute of sorts.

Must look out for those refs the next time I give the piece a whirl - thanks, EH.

[Nick Armstrong]

Must look out for those refs the next time I give the piece a whirl - thanks, EH.

Wow, me too! Never noticed!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Wow, me too! Never noticed!

To be honest it’s so fleeting it’s a blink and you’d miss it . It’s just a modal fragment - 5 notes and a chromatic fall . Despite my earlier post it could just be a coincidence but who knows? There’s a similar thing in Act One Tosca when in the first version Puccini quotes O Sole Mio even though he almost certainly hadn’t heard it !

When I’ve got a moment I’ll listen to it with the score and give a timing on the work as performed on this weeks COTW. I was looking at that today. On the page it’s more complex than a lot of the symphonies with very dense orchestration in places . By that I mean that there are certain RVW symphs one can work through on the piano - parts of this would completely defeat me.

This RVW series is shaping up to be the definitive aural essay on the great man. I might be tempted to say “worth the licence fee on its own “ were that not a cliché.