Charles Ives (1874-1954): 14-18/10/24

[richardfinegold]

Charles Ives Remembered contains an interview with Elliott Carter given to the author Vivian Perlis in 1969 in which Carter references a visit to Ives' home in East 74th St. in around 1929. The younger composer is somewhat non-plussed to find Ives revising the score of Three Places in New England "adding & changing, turning octaves into 7ths and 9th, and adding dissonant notes" and he goes on "I got the impression that he might have frequently jacked up the level of dissonance of many works as his tastes changed".

What Carter doesn't mention in his interview is that Ives' revisions were in preparation for the première of Three Places by the Boston Chamber Orchestra under Slonimsky in 1931. This would have involved a considerable reduction from the full symphonic original in which dissonant notes from missing parts would perhaps have to be re-assigned to different instruments in order to balance out the aural effect.

Very interesting

[Serial_Apologist]

Very interesting

Indeed! Thank you Maclintick for finding that.

[Maclintick]

Indeed! Thank you Maclintick for finding that.

You’re very welcome, SA. Apropos of Ian Thumwood comments above, I also scoured the Perlis book for any mention of jazz, and of the practitioners who were active during Ives’ lifetime, drawing an absolute blank. No mention of Ellington, Armstrong, Morton, or Gershwin and Whiteman, and only the most tangential reference to Gottschalk, in relation to John Kirkpatrick’s interests, as it were.

Revisted the Concord Sonata last night, and was bowled over again by the sheer exuberant inventiveness of the piece. Ives was obviously familiar with Debussy’s pianistic oeuvre, but of course takes off in his own direction.

[Ian Thumwood]

Maclintock

I found a really interesting article on line by jazz pianist Ethan Iveson who proposed a number of records where Ives's music could be perceived as an influence on musicians as diverse as Keith Jarrett, Paul Motian, Bill Frisell and Albert Ayler. All of these musicians have cited the influence of Ives.

What I cannot find is anything where Ives offered an opinion on jazz. This is what fascinates me. Not aware of his offering favourable opinions as was the case with Ravel, Milhaud , Martinu or Reich. Just curious to see how aware he was of jazz. I am guessing he was not a fan.

To pick up Richard's salient comment about Hip Hop, i would agree that this is a distinct social / popular form of music which owes it's roots to US. However, I feel the Blues are perhaps a better example and another significant achievement in Anerican music.

I cannot really subscribe to any idea that classical music can be taken in isolation these days. Since the introduction of gramophone recordings it us very much a mixing pot . Jazz has had a big role to play in classical music and even Ives was aware of composers like Stephen Foster.

[smittims]

Well, lots of people listen to classical music to the exclusion of other genres, and some even compose it without reference to other genres, so when you say it cannot be taken in isolation,are you suggesting that it is impossible to do so or that it is morally-reprehensible?

[gurnemanz]

The American Brahms ?

Ives did a very appealing version of one of Brahms's best-known songs, Feldeinsamkeit. I got to know it via Gerald Finley's excellent album with Julius Drake on Hyperion. I discovered that Fischer-Dieskau also sang it. I didn't know his Ives album, released in 1976 and recently re-issued). I have just belatedly caught up with it via Spotify.

[Maclintick]

Maclintock

I found a really interesting article on line by jazz pianist Ethan Iveson who proposed a number of records where Ives's music could be perceived as an influence on musicians as diverse as Keith Jarrett, Paul Motian, Bill Frisell and Albert Ayler. All of these musicians have cited the influence of Ives.

What I cannot find is anything where Ives offered an opinion on jazz. This is what fascinates me. Not aware of his offering favourable opinions as was the case with Ravel, Milhaud , Martinu or Reich. Just curious to see how aware he was of jazz. I am guessing he was not a fan.

As I noted in #33 above, I could find no mention of jazz in the Perlis book, which is basically a multifarious collection of reminiscences by people who knew him.

Ives was a complicated character, with paradoxical sides to a nature shaped by the Emersonian tenets of freedom and original thinking. He had a pathological aversion to being photographed, and refused to own a radio or a phonograph, as if these modern distractions would compromise his adherence to Danbury values and the world of childhood to which he clung tenaciously. Without a phonograph, opportunities for experiencing ragtime or early jazz would be scarce. An intriguing paradox is that he regarded spontaneity and improvisation, the twin pillars of jazz, in performances of his music as absolutely paramount, becoming annoyed when asked why he never played a piece in the same way twice, or even as it was written on the page. In notation of his manuscripts, he omitted barlines where he could get away with it, to the discomfiture of performers such as John Kirkpatrick who needed the crutch of metrical exactitude, and re-barred the Concord Sonata accordingly. The jazz musicians you mention obviously see in Ives a kindred spirit in freedom and spontaneity of expression.

[Padraig]

I discovered Fischer-Dieskau . . . his Ives album, released in 1976 and recently re-issued. I have just belatedly caught up with it via Spotify.

I would love to hear that, gurnamanz. Meanwhile EMI American Classics Charles Ives includes some of those songs, sung by Marni Nixon with John McCabe.

[Padraig]

An intriguing paradox is that he regarded spontaneity and improvisation, the twin pillars of jazz, in performances of his music as absolutely paramount, becoming annoyed when asked why he never played a piece in the same way twice, or even as it was written on the page . . . The jazz musicians you mention obviously see in Ives a kindred spirit in freedom and spontaneity of expression.

Thank you for that explanation, Maclintick. What with hymns,spirituals, street music and marching bands etc appearing in his music, I too found it puzzling that jazz was not instantly apparent.
I now rest assured.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thank you for that explanation, Maclintick. What with hymns,spirituals, street music and marching bands etc appearing in his music, I too found it puzzling that jazz was not instantly apparent.
I now rest assured.

Yes, Maclintick's viewpoint has much going for it. In addition one has perhaps to consider that jazz was still a very new acknowledged form of music by the time Ives ended composing original music (as opposed to his later revisionings as mentioned above), and was yet to be recorded by black musicians and bands. In even critical America at the start of the 1920s the term "jass" was still in vogue and some serious commentators did not yet differentiate Jazz as such from Ragtime. Given Ives's penchant for "naturalism" was have to thank him in many ways for the impressionistic Ragtime - or is it jazz? - episode in "Central Park in the Dark", composed in 1908 or 1909, therefore well before recorded documentation, for giving us an idea of what the early music sounded like, at the very least.

[Ian Thumwood]

Well, lots of people listen to classical music to the exclusion of other genres, and some even compose it without reference to other genres, so when you say it cannot be taken in isolation,are you suggesting that it is impossible to do so or that it is morally-reprehensible?

Smittims

I dont think this statement is true. Pick up any music by Bach and he is utilising the popular dances of his day. Even Beethoven composed variations on unlikely popular tunes including Scottish themes.

If you move into the late 19th and early 20th century many composers were heavily influenced by folk music. By 1920s Milhaud and Martinu were checking out jazz and later composers such as Steve Reich got inspiration from the likes of John Coltrane. More contemporary composers have been influenced by advances in technology. Classical music rarely operates in a vacuum.

[Ian Thumwood]

From the age of mif 40s to 80 Ives could have checked out jazz from King Oliver through to Charlie Parker. I think the ambivalence towards records and the radio would have made it difficult for him to hear jazz. Seems from.the fascinating post earlier that he never encountered jazz.

Funny how this happens. Messaien has probably been the most influential composer on jazz post war but he hated jazz with a passion.


The Iveson article is interesting. Surprised by Jarrett's enthusiasm for Ives.

[Serial_Apologist]

Smittims

I dont think this statement is true. Pick up any music by Bach and he is utilising the popular dances of his day. Even Beethoven composed variations on unlikely popular tunes including Scottish themes.

If you move into the late 19th and early 20th century many composers were heavily influenced by folk music. By 1920s Milhaud and Martinu were checking out jazz and later composers such as Steve Reich got inspiration from the likes of John Coltrane. More contemporary composers have been influenced by advances in technology. Classical music rarely operates in a vacuum.

And "even" the Schoenberg circle identified with the lighter side of the Viennese classical tradition, re-arranging for smaller line-ups and performing famous Strauss waltzes during the existence of their private music group following WWI.

[smittims]

Yes, I now see what Ian means . I thought he was claiming that no-one could possibly consider classical music without taking an interest in Jazz. Still, not every composer includes references to other genres, showing that it is not impossible to consider classical music in isolation.