Dorothy Howell (1898-1982): 7-11/9/24

[AuntDaisy]

In fact it would take 7 to 8 days to play all of Bach - less if you take out parodies and reversioning . Telemann would take about 10 days but I think he falls into the inconsistent category . Beethoven is about 90 hours and there are some weaker works there. Haydn 340 hours but quite a lot of filler. Mozart 240 and ditto Ok lets say six weeks…

A Bach Christmas ran from 7pm 16/12/2005 to 5pm 25/12/2005 (schedule PDF), but there was some discussion / chat included - so I think you're close.
As Radio Times put it "Radio 3 embarks on a 214-hour broadcast of Johann Sebastian Bach's complete surviving works."

Apologies mopsus our posts crossed...

[french frank]

The complete works of Bach alone would occupy a month of the Radio 3 schedules so I think there's no excuse for mediocre music to ever be played on Radio 3. Moreover, there is a vast array of works of quality which fall between the masterpiece and the mediocre designation (eg 400 or so Scarlatti sonatas (I'm deliberately excluding the 155 out and out masterpieces) and 500 or so Vivaldi concertos. I

As you rightly say, music isn't either masterpiece or mediocre. How is 'mediocre music' defined in any usable way? It seems an arbitrary term which people will disagree on. And few people would want to be listening to all that Bach all the time, so standards will inevitably be 'lowered' from the pinnacles.

We all have our CD collections to fall back on. Why make an issue of one programme now and again falling short of one's own, personal requisite for listening satisfaction?

[Sir Velo]

In fact it would take 7 to 8 days to play all of Bach - less if you take out parodies and reversioning . Telemann would take about 10 days but I think he falls into the inconsistent category . Beethoven is about 90 hours and there are some weaker works there. Haydn 340 hours but quite a lot of filler. Mozart 240 and ditto Ok lets say six weeks…

And Josquin, Palestrina, Monteverdi, Gabrieli; Gesualdo; Purcell; Handel; Vivaldi; Scarlatti; Schubert; Verdi; Wagner; Bruckner; Mahler; Stravinsky et al etc ad nauseam ad infinitum....

[vinteuil]

And Josquin, Palestrina, Monteverdi, Gabrieli; Gesualdo; Purcell; Handel; Vivaldi; Scarlatti; Schubert; Verdi; Wagner; Bruckner; Mahler; Stravinsky et al etc ad nauseam ad infinitum....

... and I wd hope we might listen to many different interpretations of the works chosen - Ein Heldenleben's "7 to 8 days to play all Bach" wd be expanded to at least 40 days if I were in charge, to reflect various performing traditions...

.

[kindofblue]

I think the point being made was that given we have had decades of mediocre male music it was about time we had similar amounts of mediocre music composed by women. Unfortunately, if that is the policy being pursued, I fear it is doomed to failure as I don't believe there is a huge audience for mediocre music by composers of either sex. In fact, I think R3 is writing its own funeral if that is going to be the approach.

Wise words Sir Velo. Some people confuse the idea of equality of opportunity with being obliged, when given the chance, for women to only be remarkable. Not so. It is the right to be as amazing, boring, astonishing or as dull as men.

[french frank]

Wise words Sir Velo. Some people confuse the idea of equality of opportunity with being obliged, when given the chance, for women to only be remarkable. Not so. It is the right to be as amazing, boring, astonishing or as dull as men.

I can go along with that! As human beings, we are more than just hedonists : we are thinking reeds.

[mopsus]

A few months ago I was using the score of an anthem or similar published in the mid-20th century. As was common at the time, the cover and inside back page were filled with a list of numerous pieces from the same publisher, and their prices. Out of curiosity I looked for pieces that were clearly by women. There were more than I'd expected, but a lot of them were clearly written for children, which gives an idea of one way that female composers' creative energies were channelled.

[kindofblue]

A few months ago I was using the score of an anthem or similar published in the mid-20th century. As was common at the time, the cover and inside back page were filled with a list of numerous pieces from the same publisher, and their prices. Out of curiosity I looked for pieces that were clearly by women. There were more than I'd expected, but a lot of them were clearly written for children, which gives an idea of one way that female composers' creative energies were channelled.

That's very interesting, a clear example of the 'We think it best if you direct your talents towards...' method of soft coercion. Thanks for sharing.

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's very interesting, a clear example of the 'We think it best if you direct your talents towards...' method of soft coercion. Thanks for sharing.

If I can just be a tiny bit cynical - in fact writing pieces for children (and indeed amateur choirs ) is a very good move financially and encouraged by publishers as it actually sells. Less so now with fewer learning the piano. It’s also not to be sneered at as it has its own demands. Let’s face it Schumann didn’t turn his nose up at it,,,

[kindofblue]

If I can just be a tiny bit cynical - in fact writing pieces for children (and indeed amateur choirs ) is a very good move financially and encouraged by publishers as it actually sells. Less so now with fewer learning the piano. It’s also not to be sneered at as it has its own demands. Let’s face it Schumann didn’t turn his nose up at it,,,

That's very interesting and I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. Pleased that at least these talented women composers may have gained financially from their work. I still can't help feeling though that at a certain point they had been 'encouraged' to follow this path, rather than become a 'serious' composer. [Concert-goers are not likely to want to spend an evening listening to music designed for children].

[french frank]

I still can't help feeling though that at a certain point they had been 'encouraged' to follow this path, rather than become a 'serious' composer.

That was my thought too. Other composers wrote for their own children, rather than for children in general, and their main output was the more substantial, orchestral works. Women received music lessons and painted watercolours (some of them quite 'creditable'!), but the greater influence on their lives was the social expectations.

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's very interesting and I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. Pleased that at least these talented women composers may have gained financially from their work. I still can't help feeling though that at a certain point they had been 'encouraged' to follow this path, rather than become a 'serious' composer. [Concert-goers are not likely to want to spend an evening listening to music designed for children].

I wouldn’t mind betting that Fanny Waterman’s Piano tuition books are the best selling pieces of classical music in the UK after the ABRSM exam books.


There are many masterpieces written for children . There is nothing unserious about writing simple music that can be played by small hands. My “feeling “ is that assuming writing children’s music is in some way demeaning is plain wrong. It’s a noble calling which is why so many great composers did it .

some examples

Schumann Kinderszenen , Album For The Young ,

It’s been said that Schumann was the first to write for children though people like Clementi , Mozart and even Beethoven wrote Sonatinas clearly aimed at beginners - small hand span , no semi quavers , no scale passages of more than five notes etc.
There are one or two of those that every young pianist must have played - they are arguably the most played classical pieces ever written.

Ravel Mother Goose suite ( for duet and arguably too difficult )

Bartok Mikrokosmos , Ten Easy Pieces.

as to a concert featuring them - Were Horowitz or Cortot to return to earth to play a recital of them I’d be first in the queue - even if it were those Clementi sonatinas

[french frank]

My “feeling “ is that assuming writing children’s music is in some way demeaning is plain wrong. It’s a noble calling which is why so many great composers did it .

That ignores my last post: it's not, not, not that writing children's music is 'demeaning': it's the fact that in the case of the male composers you mention, their music for children was a minor or at least a very small part of their output: their posthumous fame doesn't rest on it and if that was all they'd written they would probably now be totally forgotten!

[mopsus]

I would add Debussy and Fauré to your list.

Numbers of performances don't guarantee a prominent place in history - the same applies to church music. Otherwise Herbert Sumsion, Edward Bairstow and William Harris, for example, would feature more strongly in lists of British 20th-century composers. Dorothy Howell may have painted herself into the same corner by in her later years writing music for the Catholic church. I can't think of anything written for English provincial Catholic churches in the mid-20th century that has got wider exposure even in Church of England performances; you needed to get into the repertoire of Westminster Cathedral to have any success. (Of course a lot of it vanished with the Vatican II reforms.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

That ignores my last post: it's not, not, not that writing children's music is 'demeaning': it's the fact that in the case of the male composers you mention, their music for children was a minor or at least a very small part of their output: their posthumous fame doesn't rest on it and if that was all they'd written they would probably now be totally forgotten!

I can’t think of any composer of either gender whose posthumous fame relies on the writing of childrens music with the possible exception of Dimitri Kabalevsky who was , in my view , a bit of a miniaturist genius. What’s so attractive about his work is that it allows the young player to explore a slightly more interesting harmonic landscape without too many accidentals.