Brahms ... inexplicable innit

[LeMartinPecheur]

Britten's attitude had changed from a youthful adoration of Brahms's music, by the way - as a teenager he loved the stuff.

There's a live recording of Britten doing B's Liebeslieder Waltzes with Arrau(!), Harper, Baker, Pears and Hemsley (not too bad a cast all things considered) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britten-Perf...brahms+britten So was this the one bit of Brahms he actually liked, or was he somehow able to put aside personal prejudices for the common good? Does anyone know?

[gradus]

I'm going to use stodgy - Brahms was dull and lacking in emotional content then suddenly everything changed, Gawd alone knows why and I get him. Britten on the other hand was always semi- attached because my wife performed so much of his music and I got used to the Pears tones but BB remains half-loved.
Last Thursday I listened to the broadcast of Brahms 4th and it made me feel (again) that no one presents a symphonic argument like Johannes. He's peerless. Excuse my enthusiasm.

[verismissimo]

I've seen a few people claim to find Brahms too dry, academic, austere, introverted, difficult, etc—not relatable enough. The slow movements are particularly cited.

I don't subscribe to this view (and Op. 36 is desert island music for me) but perhaps those who do could elaborate, if there are any hereabouts.

Sorry. Can't help you there, kea.

[richardfinegold]

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks to Calum for starting it.
I have gone through some periods when I found myself disliking large parts of Brahms ouvre, but not in the past several years. i used to think that the Symphonies could sound thick and clotted in their Orchestration, but after exposure to several recorded cycles where care was displayed with the inner voices and cross rhythms, I have come to fully appreciate the music. Currently I am enjoying the Manze cycle, in which the chamber sized orchestra and SACD recording keeps the textures sparkingly transparent.
I haven't listened to the sextets in years. I don't actually have a recording of them. What other recordings do people recommend?
Reportedly the Boston Symphony concert hall in the late 19th century had a axe that was to be used in case of fire that someone had written "Use in case of Brahms" underneath. He has always had his detractors.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I haven't listened to the sextets in years. I don't actually have a recording of them. What other recordings do people recommend?

The Hyperion Raphael Ens disc of the two sextets does me very nicely.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks to Tevot for linking to that perf of the 2nd Sextet - strong foreshadowing of Schoenberg's Verklaerte Nacht towards the end of the third movement in those pedal points, I thought. I don't have much knowledge of Brahms's music - that was a first hearing. Must get out some of the piano music sometimes, of which my mum, a virtuoso who could have had a career in public performance had she not put marriage first, as many of course then did, left me lots.

[Richard Barrett]

no one presents a symphonic argument like Johannes.

See, this is part of the problem as far as Im concerned. Music that seems (as Brahms's does) to invite description in terms of "argument" turns me right off. There seems to me to be no space in it for the irrational, the unbalanced (I mean in structural terms but it could equally be applied in expressive terms), the excessive, the uncertain or unknown... I guess that could be a positive quality for some!

[Barbirollians]

I suggest the Menuhin/Kempe recording of the Violin Concerto for anyone who thinks they do not like Brahms - if that does not win you over then nothing will .

Except perhaps Bruno Walter .

[Tevot]

I am envious of your attendance at the concert, jazzer.

Brahms more than anybody else is the composer I return to to reground, refocus, or whatever.

If Beethoven does the music in heaven, Brahms will have to do his weekends off.
And the Sextets..........I don't have the words......actually you don't need words, just ears.

Brilliantly put TS

[Ferretfancy]

Brilliantly put TS

Sorry Tevot, but I have it on good authority that Mozart does the music in heaven.

[gradus]

Maybe you're right about 'argument' and I can see why it can get in the way but to me there is so much passion in his music - 'inexplicable innit'.

[Roehre]

Maybe you're right about 'argument' and I can see why it can get in the way but to me there is so much passion in his music - 'inexplicable innit'.

Passion, love and loss, tragedy, irony and admiration, humour, landscape and humanity - all to be found in Brahms' music (as it is in Mahler's and Beethoven's e.g. too btw)

[Beresford]

Brahms and Dire Straits

There was a discussion about this is an episode of Music Weekly yonks ago (Michael Oliver was presenting!) and IIRC, the most frequently-cited reasons that people who didn't like Brahms gave for their antipathy were (first) his frequent use of 2 against 3 cross-rhythms (which made them literally feel nauseous) .

Interesting - I have always had a strong reaction against Brahms music; I don't understand why - I know he's good. I get the same reaction to Dire Straits. Is there some structural similarity? I had guessed that it was something about descending runs.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

See, this is part of the problem as far as Im concerned. Music that seems (as Brahms's does) to invite description in terms of "argument" turns me right off.

Okay - this is a personal response; but it would be interesting to know why you are "turned off" by such Music, especially as your own words are so well argued. Do you see your written words as an discussion of your "rational" thoughts and your Music as giving greater opportunity for the expression and exploration of the more "irrational, unbalanced, excessive, uncertain and unknown" aspects of your thinking and feeling? Do you "deny" (or just "dislike") the ability of other Music to pursue lines of thought equivalent to, say, a Hegelian thought process?

There seems to me to be no space in it for the irrational, the unbalanced (I mean in structural terms but it could equally be applied in expressive terms), the excessive, the uncertain or unknown...

But one of the fascinations for me about Brahms is the way his Music leads him to areas of expression that seem unthinkable from the start of works. The way his "arguments" become unholy rows, and how his following where his Music takes him (as opposed to forcing it into areas where it really doesn't work and becomes empty padding, as with so many Symphonists of the mid 19th Century) results in an ambiguous attraction/repulsion with the irrational, which Brahms is honest enough to exploit honestly. This is why, I think, Schenker had such difficulties with Brahms' large-scale structures: there are great passages in all of them where they don't do what they seem to be doing, nor follow the obvious "argument" that their openings seem to suggest they ought to follow.

And he can so take the piss out of himself: the Coda of the Second Symphony (after the "Wagnerian" Horn solo that Roehre mentions there is a over-lush string melody - which is immediately followed by a insolent "Ooh, get her" parody. (The conclusion of the First String Sextet does something similar - a "profound" version of the First Group theme, poised between pomposity and sentimentality, is immediately cancelled with a concluding "Yeah, sure; who wants a beer?" dismissal.)

I guess that could be a positive quality for some!

Well, yes; perhaps it can, for some - and there are plenty of performances that skate over the inner contradictions and differances of the Music to provide a warm blanket of sound. But that works both ways - for some of Brahms' detractors it might be comforting to ignore these contradictions; it makes their dislike so much easier to justify/qualify. But performances that pay attention to the scores can't avoid the "going against the grain" friction of the Music, which, because it is presented in such rational, certain, knowing, balanced overall structures, makes it for me so endlessly fascinating and rewarding.

Oh - and the glorious klang of the stuff, too!

[teamsaint]

Interesting - I have always had a strong reaction against Brahms music; I don't understand why - I know he's good. I get the same reaction to Dire Straits. Is there some structural similarity? I had guessed that it was something about descending runs.

well That I do understand. (and I feel much the same about Queen, for instance, although their street wise flip side, Alex Harvey I hold in the highest esteem).
Though even I will admit that Romeo and Juliet (especially sung by Steve Knightly) and Sultans of Swing are good songs.
I think it may be about need. I don't think there is anything I need from Dire Straits,but there is from Brahms or Alex Harvey.