Aurora children's concerts

[french frank]

I don't see it as an ambition or aspiration - more a necessity. Lest classical/serious/whatever music will be no more than an entry in Wikipedia in 150 years time.

But, to get back to the OP, compare it with what Aurora is doing. And other outreach projects. Aurora is saying young children don't need to be 'protected' from the real thing. And these concerts are giving them everything you mentioned, too (except not quite 120 performers, I imagine).

[teamsaint]

Sod living in Hampshire

That is what you get with insane house prices and static wages .
And Salisbury has some of the worst wage rate/house prices in the known world.
Streets paved with fools gold......

And the music scene (back on topic) isn't too clever either........because the people with any influence are totally obsessed with a very narrow part of the "education " system.

Back in the day they did saturday morning concerts for kids, but IIRC it was the usual stuff, Peter and the Wolf for private school kids.
All done with the very best of intentions, no doubt.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sod living in Hampshire

Let's keep Alan Titchmarsh out of this.

[french frank]

Babies, or more precisely, mothers on maternity leave who are going out of their mind with boredom are one of the fastest growing markets. These women are constantly looking out for somewhere to go and something to do: baby yoga, baby sign language, baby tough & feel sense class… these activities may convince parents that they are helping their babies but in practice, this is more likely to be a way of preventing mothers from becoming depressed. Hard work for babies.

I think you may be unfairly prejudging (the writer is also a research fellow at Trinity Laban, and a writer on music). The concerts are billed as 'family concerts'. One probably needs to have worked with babies and toddlers to know what they will respond to (I don't!) and what will keep their attention. Bothering to take the children out somewhere on a Saturday morning doesn't sound like new mums looking for something to do.

There is also plenty of programmatic music, so narratives aren't always divorced from music. And there's nothing stopping other people from teaching children in the way they think most effective.

[doversoul1]

Like pharmaceutical, researches in or related to early years and childcare often need to have commercial potentials. One of Kate Wakeling’s past jobs is development consultant at Faber music, and her current jobs include a/the creative project co-ordinator at Aurora orchestra. She knows her market (and how to make people want the product they didn’t know about).

To people who have young children, what to do on Saturday mornings is one of the biggest headaches. A classical music concert with educational glow can’t fail to attract parents who are unlikely to take their children to pop concerts even if that’s all they listen to themselves.

A lot of people do teach children music and other things in the way they think most effective, but very often it is adults’ interest or even some sort of unfulfilled desire that is disguised as children’s interest. If you enjoy listening to classical music and want to share the pleasure with your child, why not just play it at home and let the child ‘be with it’ quietly or take him/her to the real thing (not a family concert which is only another way of saying ‘for KIDS’)? And if you* are not interested in classical music, do something you are interested in with your child. It will be far more effective to the child development than being taken to something that is supposed to be good for them (the children).

Still if it helps the orchestra financially and reputation-wise, it probably is a good thing.

*I don't mean you, ff.

[french frank]

Fo people who have young children, what to do on Saturday mornings is one of the biggest headaches. A classical music concert with educational glow can’t fail to attract parents who are unlikely to take their children to pop concerts even if that’s all they listen to themselves.

But surely, what to do with the children is a completely different problem from your previous scenario - the bored mums? It takes quite a bit of time and effort to get to Kings Place of a Saturday morning - not like the nearest childminder?

If you enjoy listening to classical music and want to share the pleasure with your child, why not just play it at home and let the child ‘be with it’ quietly or take him/her to the real thing (not a family concert which is only another way of saying ‘for KIDS’)? And if you* are not interested in classical music, do something you are interested in with your child. It will be far more effective to the child development than being taken to something that is supposed to be good for them (the children).

Maybe they do that as well? But in the home environment, children have a lot of other things they want to do - now! Or maybe they don't do it because they just have a vague feeling that 'classical music' is a good thing to introduce their children to - dunno why ...

Still if it helps the orchestra financially and reputation-wise, it probably is a good thing.

That is the equivalent of writing off all their efforts. That level of cynicism (and pessimism) is beyond me.

[doversoul1]

But surely, what to do with the children is a completely different problem from your previous scenario - the bored mums? Maybe they do that as well? But in the home environment, children have a lot of other things they want to do - now! Or maybe they don't do it because they just have a vague feeling that 'classical music' is a good thing to introduce their children to - dunno why ...

:

My previous post about various baby related activities was a reference to ‘a new way of engaging even very young children (0-6 year-olds…’. Any activities with babies younger than one year old are most likely to be for mothers.

It takes quite a bit of time and effort to get to Kings Place of a Saturday morning - not like the nearest childminder?

Probably not much more than going to a theme park somewhere out in the country.

Maybe they do that as well? But in the home environment, children have a lot of other things they want to do - now! Or maybe they don't do it because they just have a vague feeling that 'classical music' is a good thing to introduce their children to - dunno why ...

I said this before not long ago but I don’t understand the obsession about introducing very young children to classical music. Let them hear it by all means but if they are not interested in or busy with other things, leave it until they are older, even until they are adults. I don’t see the point in feeding them in the form of ‘for children’ because it is supposed to be good for them.

That is the equivalent of writing off all their efforts. That level of cynicism (and pessimism) is beyond me. :smiley

That depends what the effort is for. I expect any professional orchestras would prefer to concentrate on their performance if they could but if this project helps parents, as well as itself, it can’t be a bad thing.

[french frank]

I don’t understand the obsession about introducing very young children to classical music. Let them hear it by all means but if they are not interested in or busy with other things, leave it until they are older, even until they are adults. I don’t see the point in feeding them in the form of ‘for children’ because it is supposed to be good for them.

I think that misses the point. If you were involuntarily exposed to pop music every day as I am, and knew that Radio1 has about 1m under 4s listening, you might feel that classical music should be given a look-in. How can you know whether they will be 'interested' in it if they never hear it?

Why are schools introducing languages at an earlier age if not because when the children reach 11 they know they're 'not interested'? How will anyone become interested in classical music if their lives become so full of other things that they never hear it? How can anyone OBJECT to children having a chance to hear - even interact with - the music, regardless of what adult motives may be, commercial, selfish, pretentious? I don't think the motives of the adults is the most important thing. In fact, it's largely irrelevant.

One of my heroes - Tony Blair - said on DID (I didn't hear it - it's what I gathered) that he intended to start listening to some classical music at some point, but for the time being he would be more likely to choose rock. There are a lot of people who have this vague feeling that, although they 'don't know much about it', there is something worthwhile about classical music. That may well apply to the parents who you say are taking the children to these concerts because they feel it's 'good for them'. In certain contexts, isn't it? You want to wait until they get older and hope they have a Damascene conversion after hearing a TV advert?

If not this way, what are you advocating?

[doversoul1]

Oh, bother!! Of, ****!!! I’ve been too taken up with this thread and MISSED THE EARLY MUSIC SHOW!!!!

I’ll come back here later.

[MrGongGong]

That depends what the effort is for. I expect any professional orchestras would prefer to concentrate on their performance if they could but if this project helps parents, as well as itself, it can’t be a bad thing.

Erm as far as I know these projects ARE part of their performance.... playing music to people is what they do

One of the problems that is somehow faced is when participation projects (or outreach or whatever) are seen only as some kind of audience development opportunity OR worse still as a "hoop" to jump through to get funding.

[doversoul1]

Erm as far as I know these projects ARE part of their performance.... playing music to people is what they do

One of the problems that is somehow faced is when participation projects (or outreach or whatever) are seen only as some kind of audience development opportunity OR worse still as a "hoop" to jump through to get funding.

I haven’t checked but I have a vague idea that Aurora Orchestra was funded with young people and children in mind in some way, so I imagine something about educational activities may be in the job description of the orchestra’s members. If the musicians enjoy playing to babies and toddlers and the parents are happy, that’s fine and it is certainly not only for fund raising or audience development but targeting educationally minded parents of very young children is a proven marketing strategy.

ff’s post #23

How can you know whether they will be 'interested' in it if they never hear it?
How will anyone become interested in classical music if their lives become so full of other things that they never hear it?

How did you know that you were interested in classical music and how did you become interested in it?

I have an impression that quite a lot of members of this forum came to know classical music in their teens or when they were well into their adulthood. This is not necessarily because they did not have opportunities but in most cases, they weren’t ready to respond to the music. I also have an impression that many members here have children and grandchildren who show little interest in classical music despite the members' wishes and efforts. On the other hand, we know that many world-class musicians come from a completely un/non musical family background.

It has been thoroughly proved that children who come from ‘reading family’ and who are introduced to books from early age develop much better reading skills. However, these researches are talking about literacy skills and not about interest in literature. As literacy is part of natural ability that everyone develops, unless there are some medical issues, as well as an essential skill in life, it is important to make sure that children learn it as soon and as well as possible. Teaching foreign language is not exactly the same but it is also a practical skill that is useful to have.

Appreciation of classical music is a personal and largely an emotional response that some people develop very early, some late and some don’t at all. It is not a skill you need in life and it doesn’t matter if people don’t have it. There are plenty of other things that can enrich people’s lives.

If not this way, what are you advocating?

I believe that children should be introduced to at least some basic knowledge of classical music and be given as many opportunities as possible to hear the real thing (recorded as well as live if possible) as part of their general education at school. This way, children who have no chance of hearing classical music at home have a chance to get to know it.

Whilst the intention may be sincere, these projects that target very young children are usually playing upon parents’ vague idea that classical music is good for children (educationally). Babies and toddlers are just as happy with rattles and toy trains as long as parents spend time playing with them. Babies probably like these musical activities not because they are hearing Bach but because their parents are playing with them.

Having said all this, I do wish my daughter, who is on maternity leave,would leave Radio 3 or even CFM on the radio rather than Radio 2 but there you are. It’s a personal choice and I cannot honestly fault her as a parent.

I think I have said all I can say for now.

[mercia]

One of my heroes - Tony Blair - said on DID (I didn't hear it - it's what I gathered) that he intended to start listening to some classical music at some point, but for the time being he would be more likely to choose rock.

I'm probably reading far too much into this but it sounds to me that he somehow feels it is his duty to listen to some classical music in order to be seen as some fully rounded cultural human being - to which my reply would be "don't bother". He can't have got to his age without hearing some classical music, if only accidentally, and obviously hasn't particularly taken to it. If one has reached 55+ years and not liked any of the classical music one has (surely) heard thusfar I can't see the point of torturing oneself for the sake of image or to please someone else.

[french frank]

I'm probably reading far too much into this but it sounds to me that he somehow feels it is his duty to listen to some classical music in order to be seen as some fully rounded cultural human being - to which my reply would be "don't bother". He can't have got to his age without hearing some classical music, if only accidentally, and obviously hasn't particularly taken to it. If one has reached 55+ years and not liked any of the classical music one has (surely) heard thusfar I can't see the point of torturing oneself for the sake of image or to please someone else.

I'm sure you're right - but I thought that was what ds was referring to: that many people have it lodged in their minds that there is something 'good' about classical music (in Blair's case it remains as a not very pronounced velleity to pursue, in parents of young children as something that it would be 'good' if their children knew about).

dover - I disagree with a number of your points but will not pursue them. I find no reference for the Aurora Orchestra having been founded as some sort of 'for children and young people' orchestra: they have merely developed a strong outreach programme.

[MrGongGong]

dover - I disagree with a number of your points but will not pursue them. I find no reference for the Aurora Orchestra having been founded as some sort of 'for children and young people' orchestra: they have merely developed a strong outreach programme.

That's what I know about them also.
The point being that the work that is described as "outreach" is as much a part of playing in an orchestra as doing a gig at the RFH.
The UK has been at the forefront of developing this and it's about time it was regarded as a core activity (which it is in many ensembles) and not just an "add on' or "hoop".

[doversoul1]

I must have misremembered some reference about Aurora Orchestra.

ff
I am curious to know on which points you disagree but I won’t go on either, or the thread might be sent down to the dungeon.