Orchestral lay- out

[Guest]

Listening to Boulez's (underrated, in my view) Mahler 6 last night, I reflected on the positioning of the horns. As is usual, they were placed next to the trumpets to the right of the conductor.
I recalled a performance of the symphony by Jansons and the Concertgebouw about a decade ago in which he separated them into two lines of four, well to his left, behind the first violins. In this position , they constituted a sort of choir. Their contribution to the tuttis was more defined and the arrangement allowed them to sound antiphonally with the the heavy brass. Very effective, I thought at the time, wondering whether Mahler the conductor would have placed them like this. Or indeed whether Mahler the composer imagined their contributions to the symphony (and perhaps others) to be heard in this way. There seem to be many instances in the symphony where a brass phrase is "answered" by the horns, not unlike the interplay between first and second violins in a Haydn symphony. And we all know how important their placement is in performance.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Placement of instruments is, in my view, often overstated. In concert halls, the deflection of sound around the building, makes sound placement extremely vague. It's only on recordings when it becomes more obvious . The placing of 2nd violins on the right may be HIPP Haydn, but it causes problems in Tchaikovsky 6, when the opening melody of the finale keeps jumping from one side to the other.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Boulez's (underrated, in my view) Mahler 6

- one of the great recordings of the work, IMO.

Alpie - Boult disagreed with you, of course; and maybe the bouncing of the melody from one side to the other is what the composer thought was best for the melody at that stage in the Movement. The part division makes no sense otherwise at the start: the melody may as well just be given to the First Violins (as it is in the Recap). IIRC, it was Stokowski who began the "all violins on one side" set-up in Philadelphia (or possibly earlier in Minnesota) - along with staggered bowing (string instruments, that is, not a drunken conductor receiving applause) to create a seamless sustained chord. Mahler's own "Concert Halls" were those of Vienna, Berlin and Amsterdam - maybe the acoustics there make the intended effect less vague than in Victorian Town Halls and 1950s Brutalist Concert Halls?

[Roehre]

Placement of instruments is, in my view, often overstated. In concert halls, the deflection of sound around the building, makes sound placement extremely vague. It's only on recordings when it becomes more obvious . .....

The main reason why Kubelik was convinced that stereo recordings contributed significantly to the increase of Mahler's popularity in the 1960s (a statement repeated regularly by DGG's sound engineers in the early 1970s, especially in the blurp accompanying the 1973 Symphony-jubilee edition celebrating DGG's 75th "birthday" of which Kubelik's Mahler set was also a part)

[Beef Oven!]

Alpie - Boult disagreed with you.....

So did Karlheinz.

[Oliver]

Elder separated the violins for his recent Parsifal at the Proms- intriguingly also separating the basses behind them... something I've not seen before.
Chailly also separated them for his Mahler 6, though how effective this was I do not know since I had a dreadful seat overlooking the left hand side of the platform.

But the positioning of the horns seems significant. When they are next to the heavy brass their unique timbre is less apparent.

I'm glad I'm not the only admirer of Boulez's Mahler 6. There's real anger in the first movement and the despair and the transient-almost manic- joy are equally well- communicated in the finale.

Excellent playing from the VPO, too (predictably) and a good recording. It's a performance that, for me, has stood the test of time.

[amateur51]

I'm glad I'm not the only admirer of Boulez's Mahler 6. There's real anger in the first movement and the despair and the transient-almost manic- joy are equally well- communicated in the finale.

Excellent playing from the VPO, too (predictably) and a good recording. It's a performance that, for me, has stood the test of time.

Does Boulez favour A/S or S/A?

I think we should be told

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Elder separated the violins for his recent Parsifal at the Proms- i
.

He does so with the Halle too.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Alpie - Boult disagreed with you..

I know, and he was a little upset when he was persuaded otherwise for his Lyrita recording of Elgar 2.

But Barbirolli thought otherwise.

I don't have any fixed views on this. For some works, it is probably better when the violins are sitting side by side and I think Strauss's tone poems are one example.

[Richard Tarleton]

Does Boulez favour A/S or S/A?

I think we should be told

S/A, Ams!

Oliver you've prompted me to give it a spin.

Have just downloaded his Mahler 7 with the RCO, from Digger Arts.....

[Hornspieler]

Placement of instruments is, in my view, often overstated. In concert halls, the deflection of sound around the building, makes sound placement extremely vague. It's only on recordings when it becomes more obvious . The placing of 2nd violins on the right may be HIPP Haydn, but it causes problems in Tchaikovsky 6, when the opening melody of the finale keeps jumping from one side to the other.

There are so many factors to be considered:

The size of the stage
The shape and height of the rostra
The size in numbers of the brass section. (Trying to blow into a phalanx of 4 trumpets, 4 trombones and 2 tubas is awful)

Speaking as a horn player, of course, but there are other considerations:

The bell of the horn faces backwards towards the side wall which forms a nice reflective surface.

In the case of Mahler, with eight horns, it is logical to seat them 4 and 4. Horns 5 to 8 will also be playing Wagner tubas which, by reason of their shape, will be adding to and blending with the brass players assembled to their left. In the 1st symphony, Mahler requires the entire horn section to stand when playing the big tune in the finale - to give clear space behind them.

But for a typical classical symphony or concerto (Mozart, for instance), the horns should be tucked in alongside the woodwinds, because they are, essentially, a constituent part of the woodwind ensemble.

Regarding the strings, I do feel that 1st and 2nd violins are better together for most works (The Rossini String Serenades are an obvious exception) and I do prefer the cello section on the outside with violas therefore facing the audience. Then, the double basses can extend themselves in a straight line behind both sections and so forming a link with the lower brass and woodwind instruments.

Of course, there will always be exceptions, but the danger with certain conductors (and indeed orchestras) is their unwillingness to be flexible, when circumstances warrant it.

Hs

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does Boulez favour A/S or S/A?

I think we should be told

The correct one - the insights of one great composer into those of another. (I rather like to think that Webern's performances of the work weren't dissimilar from the Rolling Stone's.)




(?"dissimilar to"? "dissimilar from"?)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't have any fixed views on this. For some works, it is probably better when the violins are sitting side by side and I think Strauss's tone poems are one example.

Yes; I think that Stokowski's rationale was that having the Seconds facing the Firsts meant that their f-holes were facing away from the audience, projecting the sound to the back of the stage. Having spent most of my student concert-going life in the cheap seats of Leeds Town Hall (behind the orchestra - so either all the strings were pointing away from me, or the Seconds were pointing in my direction) I found that the ear adjusted the balance subconsciously.

[LeMartinPecheur]

The placing of 2nd violins on the right may be HIPP Haydn, but it causes problems in Tchaikovsky 6, when the opening melody of the finale keeps jumping from one side to the other.

But surely this is the intended effect, deliberately discontinuous? Doesn't the scoring change later with 1sts and 2nds playing the full theme together?

[Richard Tarleton]

I recalled a performance of the symphony by Jansons and the Concertgebouw about a decade ago in which he separated them into two lines of four, well to his left, behind the first violins. In this position , they constituted a sort of choir.

Just watched a Maazel/Concertebouw Mahler 6, part of a Mahler cycle (various conductors) on Sky Arts - horns as you describe, 2 ranks of 4 well to the left, next to the harps.