Problem Works By Composers You Love

[Roehre]

The Beethoven Triple isn't his best work but the Brahms Double is fine though I have to say that I don't listen to either very much and have never heard them live.

Brahms opus 102 is one of my favourites.

Beethoven op.56 is a weird product.
It's his second attempt to compose a triple concerto.
A concerto in D was abandoned although he already had started to write out the orchestral score - contrary to his normal working method without having prepared a continuity draft.

Both concertos suffer from rather static and inert melodic material- and this may be deliberately so.
The opening melody of op.56 is very difficult to develop, too inert for using in a proper contrasting sonata movement. Would be a perfect theme for a variation movement however. It's this ambiguity which causes the bit boring character of at least the first mvt.

Contrary to any of the other concertos the triple concerto is essentially not a concerto based on contrasting material between soloist and orchestra developing in something of a dialogue. It is based on repeating material between the soloists, not contrasting with the orchestra and certainly not in a dialogue. It's essentially a concertante for piano trio and orchestra in a kind of a concerto grosso, and Beethoven was not succesful in this experiment.

The polonaise theme of the rondo-finale doesn't convince either.

One element however returns later: the transition form slow mvt to finale. The op.56 model returns (better exploited, but nevertheless) in the Emperor-concerto.

From the very beginning the triple concerto wasn't considered a succes , not by the composer, not by the soloists.
The public seems not be able to warm for the work either.
Not even Oistrach, Rostropovich and Richter are IMHO able to save it.

Indeed, for me this work fits perfectly within the subject of this thread.

[cloughie]

Beethoven's Triple Concerto and Brahms' Double Concerto - Is it just me or are these works difficult to pull off?

I love both these works and have had a long-term liking for the Fricsay (TC - Fournier, Schneiderhan, Anda, DC - Schneiderhan, Starker).

[Ferretfancy]

Brahms opus 102 is one of my favourites.

Beethoven op.56 is a weird product.
It's his second attempt to compose a triple concerto.
A concerto in D was abandoned although he already had started to write out the orchestral score - contrary to his normal working method without having prepared a continuity draft.

Both concertos suffer from rather static and inert melodic material- and this may be deliberately so.
The opening melody of op.56 is very difficult to develop, too inert for using in a proper contrasting sonata movement. Would be a perfect theme for a variation movement however. It's this ambiguity which causes the bit boring character of at least the first mvt.

Contrary to any of the other concertos the triple concerto is essentially not a concerto based on contrasting material between soloist and orchestra developing in something of a dialogue. It is based on repeating material between the soloists, not contrasting with the orchestra and certainly not in a dialogue. It's essentially a concertante for piano trio and orchestra in a kind of a concerto grosso, and Beethoven was not succesful in this experiment.

The polonaise theme of the rondo-finale doesn't convince either.

One element however returns later: the transition form slow mvt to finale. The op.56 model returns (better exploited, but nevertheless) in the Emperor-concerto.

From the very beginning the triple concerto wasn't considered a succes , not by the composer, not by the soloists.
The public seems not be able to warm for the work either.
Not even Oistrach, Rostropovich and Richter are IMHO able to save it.

Indeed, for me this work fits perfectly within the subject of this thread.

I'm afraid I can't agree about the Beethoven, especially when played by Oistrakh and Co. True, Beethoven kept the ideas simple for the interplay of three players, but the lilt they bring to the finale is captivating. Ah well!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Joining the thread late, let's see:

Puccini: The Girl from the Golden West
Beethoven: finale of 5th Symphony
Mozart: Cosi Fan Tutti
Bach: 48 Prelude & Fugues
Tchaikovsky: 1st Piano Concerto
Elgar: The Wand of Youth
Monteverdi: Orfeo
Schubert: Symphony no. 5
Wagner: Lohengrin
Vaughan Williams - I can't think of anything at all

[Serial_Apologist]

Vaughan Williams - I can't think of anything at all

I think that piece was composed posthumously!

[EdgeleyRob]

Brahms opus 102 is one of my favourites.

Beethoven op.56 is a weird product.
It's his second attempt to compose a triple concerto.
A concerto in D was abandoned although he already had started to write out the orchestral score - contrary to his normal working method without having prepared a continuity draft.

Both concertos suffer from rather static and inert melodic material- and this may be deliberately so.
The opening melody of op.56 is very difficult to develop, too inert for using in a proper contrasting sonata movement. Would be a perfect theme for a variation movement however. It's this ambiguity which causes the bit boring character of at least the first mvt.

Contrary to any of the other concertos the triple concerto is essentially not a concerto based on contrasting material between soloist and orchestra developing in something of a dialogue. It is based on repeating material between the soloists, not contrasting with the orchestra and certainly not in a dialogue. It's essentially a concertante for piano trio and orchestra in a kind of a concerto grosso, and Beethoven was not succesful in this experiment.

The polonaise theme of the rondo-finale doesn't convince either.

One element however returns later: the transition form slow mvt to finale. The op.56 model returns (better exploited, but nevertheless) in the Emperor-concerto.

From the very beginning the triple concerto wasn't considered a succes , not by the composer, not by the soloists.
The public seems not be able to warm for the work either.
Not even Oistrach, Rostropovich and Richter are IMHO able to save it.

Indeed, for me this work fits perfectly within the subject of this thread.

Fascinating post Roehre,thanks.
I'm not qualified to argue against your explanation of the Triple Concerto's shortcomings,but IMVHO Oistrach, Rostropovich and Richter make it sound like a masterpiece

[Roehre]

Fascinating post Roehre,thanks.
I'm not qualified to argue against your explanation of the Triple Concerto's shortcomings,but IMVHO Oistrach, Rostropovich and Richter make it sound like a masterpiece

they certainly do, and as ferretfancy rightly says, the finale is definitely played with gusto.
But even this recording - or the likewise well played one with Fournier, Schneiderhan, Anda on DGG [included in the DGG Beethoven Editions of 1970 and 1977 e.g.] - hardly leaves listeners with the impression of a not to be missed master piece I'm afraid.

[Don Petter]

they certainly do, and as ferretfancy rightly says, the finale is definitely played with gusto.
But even this recording - or the likewise well played one with Fournier, Schneiderhan, Anda on DGG [included in the DGG Beethoven Editions of 1970 and 1977 e.g.] - hardly leaves listeners with the impression of a not to be missed master piece I'm afraid.

Perhaps the problem is the forced arrangement for violin, 'cello and piano, since, as in the case of the arpeggione, it is now impossible to find a triple?

[David-G]

Joining the thread late, let's see:

Puccini: The Girl from the Golden West
Beethoven: finale of 5th Symphony
Mozart: Cosi Fan Tutti
Bach: 48 Prelude & Fugues
Tchaikovsky: 1st Piano Concerto
Elgar: The Wand of Youth
Monteverdi: Orfeo
Schubert: Symphony no. 5
Wagner: Lohengrin
Vaughan Williams - I can't think of anything at all

We seem to have diametrically opposing views. Lohengrin is (to me) a particularly wonderful opera by Wagner; Cosi fan Tutte is one of the great ones by Mozart; and The Girl of the West is my favourite Puccini (in fact, just about the only one I really like).

[Roehre]

Perhaps the problem is the forced arrangement for violin, 'cello and piano, since, as in the case of the arpeggione, it is now impossible to find a triple?

[Dave2002]

Saint-Saëns:
Piano concertos - with the exception of No 2.

They get slightly better with more exposure, but I think "slightly" is the operative word.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

oining the thread late, let's see:

Puccini: The Girl from the Golden West
Beethoven: finale of 5th Symphony
Mozart: Cosi Fan Tutti
Bach: 48 Prelude & Fugues
Tchaikovsky: 1st Piano Concerto
Elgar: The Wand of Youth
Monteverdi: Orfeo
Schubert: Symphony no. 5
Wagner: Lohengrin
Vaughan Williams - I can't think of anything at all.

I seem to have diametrically opposing views. Lohengrin is (to me) a particularly wonderful opera by Wagner; Cosi fan Tutte is one of the great ones by Mozart; and The Girl of the West is my favourite Puccini (in fact, just about the only one I really like).

That's just the point, isn't it. Most of these works are on the top draw of classical music (though perhaps not this particular Elgar work). But not for me.

[amateur51]

I love both these works and have had a long-term liking for the Fricsay (TC - Fournier, Schneiderhan, Anda, DC - Schneiderhan, Starker).

We can stand shoulder-to-shoulder on those two, cloughie

[hmvman]

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius. Just can't get into that work in spite of several attempts!

[MrGongGong]

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius. Just can't get into that work in spite of several attempts!

i'm saying nothing