Things they somehow managed to avoid......

[kea]

Supposedly... but by that token there's a universe in which Brian Ferneyhough wrote an opera based on "The Magic Roundabout".

Re Mahler, to add to Ferretfancy's talk of depression, there was also suffolkcoastal's remark that he wrote too many symphonies. That for me counts as a veritable avalanche of anti-Mahler sentiment!

I think Mahler should have stopped at zero symphonies. Tedious, bombastic, anti-intellectual music Anti-Mahler sentiment? Where?

I do however think Mahler might have written good operas, or for that matter, operettas or ballets. Or cabaret shows had he lived long enough. A few sets of piano miniatures a la Kreisleriana would have been interesting, too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Supposedly... but by that token there's a universe in which Brian Ferneyhough wrote an opera based on "The Magic Roundabout".

Surely that was Dillon?

[Richard Barrett]

Surely that was Dillon?

(Although of course both of them are characters in it.)

[Richard Barrett]

I think Mahler should have stopped at zero symphonies. Tedious, bombastic, anti-intellectual music

I feel like I've stepped into the Twilight Zone...

[Beef Oven!]

I think Mahler should have stopped at zero symphonies. Tedious, bombastic, anti-intellectual music Anti-Mahler sentiment? Where?

I do however think Mahler might have written good operas, or for that matter, operettas or ballets. Or cabaret shows had he lived long enough. A few sets of piano miniatures a la Kreisleriana would have been interesting, too.

I think you are totally wrong. Mahler couldn't have stopped at zero symphonies because in order to stop, you must have started. What you mean, is that he should've stopped after the first symphony. And you're wrong about that too

[kea]

I feel like I've stepped into the Twilight Zone...

Couldn't resist... sorry.

I genuinely do not care for Mahler's music and am baffled as to why people more intelligent and discerning than I think so highly of it, but that's probably a topic for a different thread, "inexplicable musical blind spots you have" or similar.

I think you are totally wrong. Mahler couldn't have stopped at zero symphonies because in order to stop, you must have started. What you mean, is that he should've stopped after the first symphony. And you're wrong about that too

To be completely fair, while I don't like the first that much either, I do rather enjoy this bit: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/mahler.mp3

Never let it be said I'm a complete anti-Mahlerian. >.>

[Ferretfancy]

Supposedly... but by that token there's a universe in which Brian Ferneyhough wrote an opera based on "The Magic Roundabout".

Re Mahler, to add to Ferretfancy's talk of depression, there was also suffolkcoastal's remark that he wrote too many symphonies. That for me counts as a veritable avalanche of anti-Mahler sentiment!

There we go! I'm not anti Mahler, in fact I find the first four symphonies very enjoyable, but then the neurosis sneaks in. It isn't the composer I dislike, after all there are plenty of others, it's the cult. Every time Mahler is performed or recorded there is endless comment and comparison of X's treatment of the rondo burlesque or Y's tempo in the slow movement etc. etc. ( Not to mention all the arguments about the order of movements ) Any breath of criticism of the great one is regarded as sacrilege,

So, now you can all tell me what delights my poor intellect is incapable of appreciating !

[Suffolkcoastal]

I think you sum that up perfectly ferret and I agree with you, one feels that one just dare not criticize without bring down the wrath of the Mahlerites. I like some of the songs and its actually the 6th & 9th symphonies that I prefer,but the 3rd, 7th & 8th in particular I wouldn't care a bit if I never heard again. I do think that a full scale Mahler opera would have been very interesting though and half a dozen String Quartets.

Holst living long enough to complete his orchestral symphony, that is one of the big might have been's for me. Another would have to be a Schubert Piano Concerto, I would have expected Schubert to have tackled the genre had he lived but another 4 or 5 years.

[kea]

Every time Mahler is performed or recorded there is endless comment and comparison of X's treatment of the rondo burlesque or Y's tempo in the slow movement etc. etc.

Well, that's just classical music nerds being themselves. You hear the same thing about Beethoven symphonies and Bach keyboard works and Stravinsky ballets and so on ("Oh god don't listen to Karajan in this one, he's dreadful, the only good performance is an obscure out-of-print release with a conductor you've probably never heard of", ad infinitum) and collectors who will proudly tell you about their 150 complete cycles of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas, most of which are only available in Japan. It's like wine or classic cars or any other niche pursuit—people like making sense of the world that way, I don't object if they enjoy it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, that's just classical music nerds being themselves. You hear the same thing about Beethoven symphonies and Bach keyboard works and Stravinsky ballets and so on ("Oh god don't listen to Karajan in this one, he's dreadful, the only good performance is an obscure out-of-print release with a conductor you've probably never heard of", ad infinitum) and collectors who will proudly tell you about their 150 complete cycles of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas, most of which are only available in Japan. It's like wine or classic cars or any other niche pursuit—people like making sense of the world that way, I don't object if they enjoy it.

Totally agree - and it's really refreshing to have someone say it on this forum! But it makes no difference to my love of Mahler's music, if less so his personality. At times one hears the stern moralist, banging his fist on a table. But against that we have the phenomenal symphonic mind, master contrapuntalist, integrator of musical worlds, sounder of new timbral, harmonic and expressive possibilities; and we shouldn't forget his support in the end for Schoenberg.

[teamsaint]

There we go! I'm not anti Mahler, in fact I find the first four symphonies very enjoyable, but then the neurosis sneaks in. It isn't the composer I dislike, after all there are plenty of others, it's the cult. Every time Mahler is performed or recorded there is endless comment and comparison of X's treatment of the rondo burlesque or Y's tempo in the slow movement etc. etc. ( Not to mention all the arguments about the order of movements ) Any breath of criticism of the great one is regarded as sacrilege,

So, now you can all tell me what delights my poor intellect is incapable of appreciating !

This issue goes well beyond Mahler, for me FF.

Quite why the world needs more cycles of all the the things we have dozens of cycles of , when there is so much potentially interesting un or under recorded music, is beyond me.

Well, that's just classical music nerds being themselves. You hear the same thing about Beethoven symphonies and Bach keyboard works and Stravinsky ballets and so on ("Oh god don't listen to Karajan in this one, he's dreadful, the only good performance is an obscure out-of-print release with a conductor you've probably never heard of", ad infinitum) and collectors who will proudly tell you about their 150 complete cycles of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas, most of which are only available in Japan. It's like wine or classic cars or any other niche pursuit—people like making sense of the world that way, I don't object if they enjoy it.

Its a pity that this kind of opinion isn't at least occasionally expressed by those in the business, in the public eye.

you know, on "In Tune" (!!), or CD review, or somewhere. A few pointed questions to conductors and performers about unrecorded pieces for instance.

[kea]

Its a pity that this kind of opinion isn't at least occasionally expressed by those in the business, in the public eye.

you know, on "In Tune" (!!), or CD review, or somewhere. A few pointed questions to conductors and performers about unrecorded pieces for instance.

Well, conductors and performers are just playing to the market, it looks like.

Standard rep sells. People want 150 Beethoven Piano Sonatas and 75 Mahler Symphonies and 37.5 Ring Cycles. From my experience, most classical music listeners would rather buy 50 different interpretations of a piece they already know than 1 of a piece they don't. Perhaps I haven't met enough listeners, but the "charts" seem to bear that out as well to a certain extent. And there is nothing wrong with that—if something appeals to you enough that you can listen to hundreds of interpretations of it and it still stays fresh, more power to you. There's a lot of music in the world. No one has time to listen to everything.

There are plenty of conductors/performers interested in championing lesser-known music, and they're often bankrolled by the record labels who get their profits from the 38th Ring Cycle and The Essential Classical Chillout Album!, so I see no problem here really.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think you sum that up perfectly ferret and I agree with you, one feels that one just dare not criticize without bring down the wrath of the Mahlerites.

But where is the "criticism" of Mahler? Saying "I don't like him" or "His Music is neurotic" isn't criticism - it doesn't comment on any failures in his use of thematic, rhythmic, structural, harmonic, contrapuntal or instrumental features. It's an expression of opinion and feeling - which is what the Forum is all about. But then so are the counter-opinions (the "wrath") of others! If someone makes the claim "Rachmanovsky produced nothing but wet bilge as far as I'm concerned", they shouldn't then feel slighted that half-a-dozen others come down on him/her with all guns blazing. It's all part of the fun!

[teamsaint]

Well, conductors and performers are just playing to the market, it looks like.

Standard rep sells. People want 150 Beethoven Piano Sonatas and 75 Mahler Symphonies and 37.5 Ring Cycles. From my experience, most classical music listeners would rather buy 50 different interpretations of a piece they already know than 1 of a piece they don't. Perhaps I haven't met enough listeners, but the "charts" seem to bear that out as well to a certain extent. And there is nothing wrong with that—if something appeals to you enough that you can listen to hundreds of interpretations of it and it still stays fresh, more power to you. There's a lot of music in the world. No one has time to listen to everything.

There are plenty of conductors/performers interested in championing lesser-known music, and they're often bankrolled by the record labels who get their profits from the 38th Ring Cycle and The Essential Classical Chillout Album!, so I see no problem here really.

Well from my experience in a similar field, just because one popular subject potentially cross subsidises another doesn't mean that it is worth doing. Supposedly popular subjects can be poor sellers. Risk taking ventures can do really well. Core rep certainly doesn't always sell well, certainly not always in the concert hall.
Lazy or conservative assumptions by promoters, publishers, record companies can be and often are to the detriment of interesting new material.

I do see a problem. There is a real problem for many contemporary composers to get their work out their, and even some of the big names suffer from having unrecorded works. Decisions about how to employ resources (eg how many new CDs a company will issue each year), and caution is not always the best way.

[Richard Barrett]

There is a real problem for many contemporary composers to get their work out there

Yes and no. Certainly releasing CDs is becoming more difficult and each one I'm involved in feels like it might be the last. But that is not really how most people listen to contemporary music these days, it seems to me. I think more people listen to what I've put on my Soundcloud page than would buy CDs of the music and I have no problem with that - moreover that page now contains over seventy items totalling twenty hours or so of music, and getting all of that released on CD would have been impossible even at the best of times.