Arrangements for string orchestra - thanks but no!

[visualnickmos]

Surely we're thinking of the Barber Adagio...but didn't Barber himself make the arrangement? I think both versions are extremely effective. Not so sure about the choral version though.

Quite!

[kea]

At least in the many cases where the composer didn't authorize the arrangement himself.

Nothing special about the composer's authorisation. Many of the Shostakovich "chamber symphonies" are pretty disappointing compared to the originals, whereas I'm quite fond of the Verdi/Toscanini string quartet (for example).

Otherwise I broadly agree. Though I am perversely curious to hear some Elliott Carter string quartets arranged for orchestra. >.>

[LeMartinPecheur]

Surely the balance remains unchanged, but with a weightier sound. The music itself is not "arranged" at all in most instances.

EA: unless you know of a string band with the same number of violas/cellos as 1st violins I rest my case!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Nothing special about the composer's authorisation. Many of the Shostakovich "chamber symphonies" are pretty disappointing compared to the originals, whereas I'm quite fond of the Verdi/Toscanini string quartet (for example).

Otherwise I broadly agree. Though I am perversely curious to hear some Elliott Carter string quartets arranged for orchestra. >.>

kea: I agree re Shoster, but if he authorised them how can I speak against them? Of course, I don't have to like them!

One exception I'd make is the Barber Adagio, which seems to me to acquire a completely different flavour in the full-string version. I don't find the quartet one grief-stricken at all, more aspirational, upwardly striving. Another is the Berg Lyric Suite. Can't think of any others though

[MrGongGong]

EA: unless you know of a string band with the same number of violas/cellos as 1st violins I rest my case!

One of the things about acoustics that many people seem to misunderstand
is that volume (or amplitude) isn't linear
2 Violins playing ff aren't perceived to be twice as loud as 1 violin playing ff
and
more than a single instrument will give you (obviously) a completely different sound even if you maintain the same volume in terms of db
so unless you think that 'balance' is only about volume as measured by a meter then the 'balance' of a group of instruments to a line will be very different to that of an ensemble of single instruments to a line.

[LeMartinPecheur]

One of the things about acoustics that many people seem to misunderstand
is that volume (or amplitude) isn't linear
2 Violins playing ff aren't perceived to be twice as loud as 1 violin playing ff
and
more than a single instrument will give you (obviously) a completely different sound even if you maintain the same volume in terms of db
so unless you think that 'balance' is only about volume as measured by a meter then the 'balance' of a group of instruments to a line will be very different to that of an ensemble of single instruments to a line.

MrGG, I don't argue with your comments, indeed concur with most of what you say, but I would simply say from experience live, on radio and LPs/CDs that string orch versions always emphasize the violin parts at the expense of the violas and cellos.

And even where the balance is kept numerically equal, as on a Capriccio CD of LvB Op 131 by the 4-to-a-part soloists of the International Musicians Seminar under Sandor Vegh (who surely should have known better!), far too much of the essence of the string quartet (sound and responsiveness between the parts) goes out the window. IMHO of course.

Though I can see that if for some strange reason you don't like the sound of single strings, string-orch arrangements may be your only access to some of the greatest music there is

[MrGongGong]

MrGG, I don't argue with your comments, indeed concur with most of what you say, but I would simply say from experience live, on radio and LPs/CDs that string orch versions always emphasize the violin parts at the expense of the violas and cellos.

Indeed they do
so there is a real significant difference between 4 players and an ensemble
In my experience it's often really hard to get ensembles to break away from the conventions they mostly work with.

[Barbirollians]

I have to admit to being rather fond of Mahler's arrangement of the Death and the Maiden .

[kea]

kea: I agree re Shoster, but if he authorised them how can I speak against them? Of course, I don't have to like them!

The composer can be wrong sometimes! They're hardly the final authority on their own music! :D

I have to admit to being rather fond of Mahler's arrangement of the Death and the Maiden .

My opinion of that arrangement is somewhat coloured by comparisons with the string quartet version, which in my case is played by the Juilliard Quartet circa 1960s in an account that has probably been equalled, but never surpassed, for sheer intensity. The Mito Chamber Orchestra is not bad, but rather pales in comparison. How much the quality of the arrangement itself has to do with that, I have no idea.

[Barbirollians]

I didn't say I was fonder of it than the original ! Especially in the VPO Quartet and Quartetto Italiano recordings.

[jayne lee wilson]

It may be a mistake to try to hear a string-orchestral arrangement of a chamber piece as merely a (more, or less, successful) amplified version of the original... surely the Berg Lyric Suite has had an independent life of its own as a (3-movement!) concert piece, similarly the Schoenberg Verklarte Nacht... for me, these two become different works with a new emotional and musical impact, just as the most successful Beethoven examples do (as aforementioned, Bernstein OP.131 - and Von Dohnanyi's OP.95, also with the VPO).

It's a little off-topic, but think of the disconnect between Brahms OP.25 Piano Quartet and Schoenberg's orchestral version of it... the listener finds herself in a parallel universe...

[Sir Velo]

In the main I agree with the OP: string orchestra arrangements of pieces composed for smaller string ensembles too often remind one of nothing more than an overweight couple dancing the fandango; what one gains in weight is lost in shape, suppleness and the ability to negotiate those tight corners without coming a cropper.

[ahinton]

It may be a mistake to try to hear a string-orchestral arrangement of a chamber piece as merely a (more, or less, successful) amplified version of the original... surely the Berg Lyric Suite has had an independent life of its own as a (3-movement!) concert piece, similarly the Schoenberg Verklarte Nacht... for me, these two become different works with a new emotional and musical impact, just as the most successful Beethoven examples do (as aforementioned, Bernstein OP.131 - and Von Dohnanyi's OP.95, also with the VPO).

It's a little off-topic, but think of the disconnect between Brahms OP.25 Piano Quartet and Schoenberg's orchestral version of it... the listener finds herself in a parallel universe...

All very good sense, comme d'habitude! Of course such arrangements need to be viewed as separate entities in their own rights. That said, I have to admit that, whilst convinced by the Barber arrangement, Verklärte Nacht and the Lyric Suite, despite the immense skill deployed in the preparation of their string orchestral versions, just don't persuade me that they're on the same level as their originals; the Schönberg in particular loses a sense of immediacy and emotional intimacy when dressed in the lush and sumptuous garb provided by the string sections of great orchestras. They're both wonderful as string orchestral pieces, of course but, to me, they still lose something of the essence of the original chamber versions.

Case by case basis, however, is surely the principal defence against SG's assertion here; different personal responses is another. Why only string quartets (or quintets or sextets) anyway? Doesn't SG's observation imply that, for him, at least, most if not all arrangements of music for forces different to those for which it was composed are somehow suspect? Perhaps he will tell us!

The prospect of the five Carter quartets being arranged for string orchestra's an interesting one! I can't quite see anyone doing any of them, though! And what about the other way around, in the case of Strauss's string septet arrangement of his Metamorphosen?...

[ahinton]

In the main I agree with the OP: string orchestra arrangements of pieces composed for smaller string ensembles too often remind one of nothing more than an overweight couple dancing the fandango; what one gains in weight is lost in shape, suppleness and the ability to negotiate those tight corners without coming a cropper.

I think that this is largely dependent on the skill of the arranger (and it would be hard to imagine anyone more skilled at stringwritings and arranging that Schönberg) - and it's also necessary, I think, to consider such arrangements made by the composers themselves as distinct from arrangments made by others. Then there's the motive; aren't some string orchestral arrangements of chamber music written with a view to trying to "popularise" them? - i.e. to get them in front of larger audiences?

The Brahms Op. 25 in Schönberg's arrangement is another animal altogether; a chamber work for piano and strings in whose new version the piano is dispensed with and an entire symphony orchestra deployed; I find it outrageous in places and outrageously amusing in others! I've no idea what "Brahms the Progressive" would have made of it, but the orchestral repertoire would be poorer for its absence.

[MrGongGong]

A more general point.
Some arrangements, versions, remixes, call them whatever are more successful than the original.
I think it's a misunderstanding of what the act of composing entails to assume that it's always a desire for total control of everything. Or even that composers always have a clear and complete idea in their minds of what the music they are making could be.

(Richard will be much more articulate than I am about this i'm sure)