Music Education in England

[Beef Oven!]

I think it's a little amusing that some folks are cheering him as he is saying (and in the same vernacular ) the same kind of things that Nigel Kennedy has been saying for years. NOT that there's anything wrong with that BUT more that many of the folks who lambast Nige for how he speaks and the way he presents himself seem find it ok with mr Rhodes....

Well put

[french frank]

I thought he was a little confused
At the start he said how the word "Classical" wasn't always useful and we should maybe use the word "music"
then seemed to use it over and over

I wrote that yesterday, with other comments, which I thought about and decided not to post.

However, Rhodes sems to me to be different from Kennedy - not least in the way he was embarrassed by a Kennedy-type pronouncement which he allegedly made but which he tried hard to disown. Whatever he said, Rhodes is very clear that there is something that can be called 'classical music' of which there are bastardised forms known as 'crossover'. To say that all kinds of music are 'music' and that's the most important thing seems to me to be

a) wrong (it's not the most important thing about it to most people)

b) obvious (as saying all vegetables are vegetables)

c) dangerous (because sooner or later 'classical' music will get dropped altogether because it's off the radar of the vast majority of people)

It is the familiarisation that has to be increased. We know that you don't HAVE to dress up to go to a classical concert, so why should anyone think otherwise? The main 'rule' seems to me to be the one that asks people to listen quietly and try not to spoil other people's enjoyment by noisy or distracting behaviour. Only people not brought up to consider others could surely find that onerous?

[DracoM]

The evidence that The Choir on Sundays is being presented by 'specialists' is less and less compelling.

[Anna]

I think that Radio 3 is missing a properly "authored" classical music programme (except for specialists The Choir and Hear and Now). The daytime strands are too bland and general. Is there a classical music Andy Kershaw out there to get stuck in and to enthuse us? Maybe one might emerge from the Saturday Classics guest roster ...

Totally agree - and I note that DracoM below is worried about The Choir slipping into the vacuous Tweeters' hands ..... I must say, re Saturday Classics, that I think Stuart Maconie has been very good, I particularly liked his last re Anthems. But yes, where is a classical A. Kershaw, enthusiasm seems lacking in R3 presenters.

[MrGongGong]

We know that you don't HAVE to dress up to go to a classical concert, so why should anyone think otherwise?

History
"Classical" music (from the audience) is historically made to be listened to in courts, big houses, religious buildings etc The people who go to those places have mainly been from the class of people who don't work with their hands and have money.
If you follow the narrative of "classical" music as presented in the media then concerts are made for folks like the buffoons on the front row of LNOTP along with the red faces, "heave ho" nonsense and bobbing up and down to the Sea Songs.Some folks consider dyed hair to be "distracting behaviour". The fact that most folks in here think otherwise matters very little i'm afraid.


Distinctions are useful BUT sometimes they are used by people who like to be gatekeepers rather than inspirers.
To say that

all kinds of music are 'music'

might seem obvious to most people
BUT i've had 'conversations' in here with people who are adamant that some of the music that I listen to isn't music.
So, to draw parallels between musics is a very powerful tool.
(apologies for this one again !)

Listen to the last track on Mutter by Rammstein then listen to Schubert's Erlkönig. They aren't the same BUT the relationships is striking.
The crossover nonsense is as objectionable to those who listen to rock music as it is to the audience at the Wigmore Hall (who probably contain more of the same people than folks would imagine).

[Beef Oven!]

Rammstein

[Beef Oven!]

[french frank]

History
"Classical" music (from the audience) is historically made to be listened to in courts, big houses, religious buildings etc The people who go to those places have mainly been from the class of people who don't work with their hands and have money.
If you follow the narrative of "classical" music as presented in the media then concerts are made for folks like the buffoons on the front row of LNOTP along with the red faces, "heave ho" nonsense and bobbing up and down to the Sea Songs.Some folks consider dyed hair to be "distracting behaviour". The fact that most folks in here think otherwise matters very little i'm afraid.


Distinctions are useful BUT sometimes they are used by people who like to be gatekeepers rather than inspirers.
To say that might seem obvious to most people
BUT i've had 'conversations' in here with people who are adamant that some of the music that I listen to isn't music.
So, to draw parallels between musics is a very powerful tool.
(apologies for this one again !)

Listen to the last track on Mutter by Rammstein then listen to Schubert's Erlkönig. They aren't the same BUT the relationships is striking.
The crossover nonsense is as objectionable to those who listen to rock music as it is to the audience at the Wigmore Hall (who probably contain more of the same people than folks would imagine).

This is about education, isn't it? So why would people think those who go to a classical concert live in an 18th-c castle any more than people who go to a jazz concert are black slaves? We don't live in history: we live now.'The narrative presented by the media'? Universally trusted by all these days, I'm sure you agree! But the media aren't the educators.

[I'd guess a fair few of the classical concert-goers have dyed hair, by the way, but I'd say 'distracting behaviour referred to noise and movement, not what people look like. It includes people who air-conduct as much as those who sway obtrusively or hum when the big tune arrives.

Gatekeepers or inspirers? Most people are neither. What some people call gatekeepers others might think of as <shudder> preservationists. Because what isn't preserved gets destroyed by time, carelessness or contempt.

As for those who think particular branches of music are 'rubbish', it applies in several ways: there are those who won't give classical music a chance because it's 'rubbish'.

[doversoul1]

Re: James Rhodes
Is he saying anything new?
Did he really think that the Brit Award was a serious Musical event?
What is this obsession about trying to get young people to listen to classical music?

I don’t doubt his sincerity but as the critic on the programme said, the sort of thing he is doing is a bit of a trend. As MrGG says enthusiasm is always engaging (and being enthusiastic isn’t the hardest thing to do). I wish him luck but I’m afraid I can’t take him seriously. He seems to me to be a convenient personality for accessibility camp (including Radio3).

As for introducing people, young or old, to classical music, Radio3 could do far better by trusting their intelligence and playing a wide variety of music in full and producing educational programmes than any of these trendy personalities offering tempting ready meals.

[MrGongGong]

This is about education, isn't it? So why would people think those who go to a classical concert live in an 18th-c castle any more than people who go to a jazz concert are black slaves? We don't live in history: we live now.

So I googled "Mozart concert audience" and this is what I got



You and I might know that this isn't really what the music is about BUT it is what people imagine.
Young people really DO often think that you have to dress up like a 1950's office worker in a suit to go to hear music by dead people
Classical music often does itself no favours by presenting images which imply that you do.
Which is NOT to say that its ok to eat crisps during a Feldman gig or have chat in the 'boring' bits of a Mahler Symphony.

As for humming when the tune arrives (i'll PM you that one !)

[Honoured Guest]

Well, I thought James Rhodes on Music Matters was a breath of fresh air. He wasn't claiming to have a panacea for every ill or perceived ill, or to be the new messiah. He simply made a few spot-on observations very articulately and, I thought, with no edge of having an axe to grind.

I agree that anything that gives off a whiff of being "trendy" is not for you and is best avoided. But I hope I would always be grateful and interested to pay attention to a friend or acquaintance who I know to be genuine, knowledgeable and authentic in their enthusiasm when they personally recommend something they've heard and talk about it intelligently and critically. I think you do get that experience from the presenters of all the jazz programmes, and it would be great to have a weekly classical programme on the same lines.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

What is this obsession about trying to get young people to listen to classical music?

I do share this obsession, but it isn't a matter of coercing them or even cajoling them. It's the need to stop denying them to oppoortunity of hearing classical music. When music hubs organise so-called Big-Sings, which consist entirely of loud amplified rock-band music, with vocal lines with over-complex rhythms, leading to constant chatter rather than singing - then I despair of the way things are going.

Mine is an increasingly lone voice.

[DracoM]

Local major hub project had a distinguished Youth Orchestra playing 'The Sound of Music' in a singalong.

??

[french frank]

I do share this obsession, but it isn't a matter of coercing them or even cajoling them. It's the need to stop denying them to oppoortunity of hearing classical music. When music hubs organise so-called Big-Sings, which consist entirely of loud amplified rock-band music, with vocal lines with over-complex rhythms, leading to constant chatter rather than singing - then I despair of the way things are going.

One factor could be that those organising the education dislike the term 'classical music' with the result that - in a form of language fascism - there is no way to talk about it, describe it or think about it: The Music That Has No Name ...

[teamsaint]

I do share this obsession, but it isn't a matter of coercing them or even cajoling them. It's the need to stop denying them to oppoortunity of hearing classical music. When music hubs organise so-called Big-Sings, which consist entirely of loud amplified rock-band music, with vocal lines with over-complex rhythms, leading to constant chatter rather than singing - then I despair of the way things are going.

Mine is an increasingly lone voice.

one for pedants corner here?

anyway, interesting to hear your experiences, EA.