Christian Thielemann - Hero or Villain?

[Gordon]

Fascinating MM today with a very interesting interview, ranging widely, and very open and friendly wth TS, first name terms not the expected stiff German. How many people called Karajan Herbert [apart from James Galway that is]? The man is urbane and thoughtful but has a somewhat controversial reputation, even allegedly having right wing tendencies. What do we think of him as an interpreter? Are there any esential recordings of his?

Some of his views reflect some that Karajan made in his various interviews, especially about politics and Art. A propos of the extra musical meaning in music I am reminded of a story about Toscanini when rehearsing Eroica: "Issa not Napoleon, issa not 'itler, issa not Mussolini issa Allegro con brio!" or words to that effect, these things get embroidered in the telling.

[amateur51]

Fascinating MM today with a very interesting interview, ranging widely, and very open and friendly wth TS, first name terms not the expected stiff German. How many people called Karajan Herbert [apart from James Galway that is]? The man is urbane and thoughtful but has a somewhat controversial reputation, even allegedly having right wing tendencies. What do we think of him as an interpreter? Are there any esential recordings of his?

Some of his views reflect some that Karajan made in his various interviews, especially about politics and Art. A propos of the extra musical meaning in music I am reminded of a story about Toscanini when rehearsing Eroica: "Issa not Napoleon, issa not 'itler, issa not Mussolini issa Allegro con brio!" or words to that effect, these things get embroidered in the telling.

I agree Gordon - fascinating, so much so that I must listen to it again.

Re Toscanini story, I thought it referred to the opening of Beethoven symphony no 5 (Fate) with the maestro saying "Iss notta Fate! Iss notta door! Iss Allegro con brio!".

But I could be wrong too

[Petrushka]

Thielemann rarely conducts in the UK so all I know of him is from his CDs and a Berlin Philharmonic concert on the Digital Concert Hall. Can one of our top orchestras persuade him to come here? There were some stories of anti-Semitic tendencies (subsequently denied) and perhaps this scared some orchestral managements off.

The only CDs I have of him are Richard Strauss Heldenleben and Alpensinfonie with the Vienna Philharmonic and both of these are very fine indeed.

[Flosshilde]

I'm sure that Toscanini understood that a good joke is worth telling twice

[Stanfordian]

Thielemann rarely conducts in the UK so all I know of him is from his CDs and a Berlin Philharmonic concert on the Digital Concert Hall. Can one of our top orchestras persuade him to come here? There were some stories of anti-Semitic tendencies (subsequently denied) and perhaps this scared some orchestral managements off.

The only CDs I have of him are Richard Strauss Heldenleben and Alpensinfonie with the Vienna Philharmonic and both of these are very fine indeed.

Hiya Petrushka,

I've seen Thielemann conduct his Staatskapelle Dresden four times at the Seper opera Dresden and in Berlin in the last two seasons. He does a great job obtaining some wonderful results and he is renowned for his Richard Strauss and Wagner performances. I get the strong impression that he is a strict disciplinarian, direct in approach and he exudes authority.

I stongly recommend this set: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Busoni-Noctu...rds=Thielemann

[Nick Armstrong]

Thielemann rarely conducts in the UK ... Can one of our top orchestras persuade him to come here?

He's done a fair bit with the Philharmonia, a point he made in the programme, and at the ROH. Not frequent perhaps, but not that rare either, perhaps.

I went to Rosekav at Covent Garden and he delivered a rich and splendid performance, though not one that lives in the mind as one of the great nights in the theatre. (As mentioned in these precincts before, I had the seat in the front row directly behind his right shoulder, which I could have tapped at any point had I chosen to lean forward and do so.... My overwhelming recollection is of the ferocity of his aftershave, which gusted in our direction with his every move )

[Gordon]

I stongly recommend this set: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Busoni-Noctu...rds=Thielemann

Thanks S I'll give that a spin, it looks like interesting repertoire which I don't have.

[Alison]

You can tell how good a conductor is by how they conduct Beethoven.

CT is fine, often compelling, always interesting.

Neither hero nor villain. Not bad. Not front rank.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Didn't his defence of unmarked ritardandi etc amount to "it doesn't matter what LvB wrote, I'll do it any way I want"?

Every now and then I do like to hear what the composer wrote; it happens rarely enough without this sort of attitude.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You can tell how good a conductor is by how they conduct Beethoven.
CT is fine, often compelling, always interesting.
Neither hero nor villain. Not bad. Not front rank.

Hmm. I really didn't find his VPO Beethoven cycle at all "fine", and if judgement rested purley on these recordings then he's neither "hero" nor "villain", just completely neglegible. However, his recordings of German repertoire from around 1900 have been excellent; among the front rank.

[Gordon]

Didn't his defence of unmarked ritardandi etc amount to "it doesn't matter what LvB wrote, I'll do it any way I want"?

Every now and then I do like to hear what the composer wrote; it happens rarely enough without this sort of attitude.

I agree with the need to stick to what the composer wrote, preferably in MS - not through publishers' editors - even though it may be dubious or questionable in some cases and worse the further back you go. If we do not do so any fool can try it on if he can muster the blarney. And that is the point of intervention: to be convincing and retain some lasting measure of artistic integrity and respectability. Let's face it, many conductors have tinkered and editors too eg J del Mar in the Beethoven case but I expect that he was working from MS and so is forgiven. Did not Toscanini and Klemperer profess adherence to the script - when it suited them - or was that just good judgement on their part of how far the letter and spirit of the score could be stretched?? What is the HIP movement if it is not convincingly revisionist? We all know what Karajan thought of the HIP movement and no doubt others of his generation too. What would we say if Beethoven came back and witnessed a rehearsal of one his pieces played by a modern ensemble [let's give him the benefit of hearing]? Would he listen carefully and appreciate it and be inspired by it or would he explode in pendantic indignation because perhaps it wasn't what he thought he had written or heard in his head? One might just imagine Handel in a similar situation being less bothered about the letter of the music. Fascinating subject.

Question is: how far do you go with an interpretation, especially if it is to be repeated verbatim and not a one-off concert, before it becomes a distortion? VW was apparently always open to suggestions during rehearsals so the composer may not always be right but he may also be stubborn and we heard on Saturday that Schumann was open to advice at the time of is 1st symphony - but people reinstated his original wishes when there was technical justification.

A pro pos of #10: I have sampled CT's Beethoven - 3, 5 and 7 - and have to say I was not overtaken by a need to hear the lot. There have been so many cycles published that any new attempt has to be distinguished by its persuasiveness - eg Kleiber Jnr - regardless of the style. I have his Heldenleben and it is very fine but he is in a strong field there.

I think CT is neither Hero nor Villain either but he claims to come from a proud German Kapellmeister tradition, with a strong foundation in the opera house. Karajan was very emphatic about that training and he was surely a part of that tradition even if he did not excel at the whole gamut of the canon from pre Bach to Berg et al. How many conductors of the 20thC can we name that could reasonably claim to approach excellence across that canon having served their apprenticeships??

[slarty]

I have had many more opportunities to see him, living as I do in Germany. He came to Dortmund quite regularly when head of the MPO and I attended many diverse concerts with him there and in Munich. Schubert 9, Brahms 4, La Mer (incandescent) ,Mendelssohn ,Strauss and Beethoven, all of which he conducted with great control of the orchestra and also with great elasticity. Anyone well versed in Furtwängler will be much more understanding of his ideas in Interpretation.
His opera conducting is wonderful, having conducted at Bayreuth now for many years and with his great facility for all things Strauss. I watched live his recent concert from Beijing with the VPO, (Beethoven 4,5 and Egmont) marvellous concert with an amazingly powerful performance of the 5th. He had one desk each of strings less for the 4th(50) and then added 10 players for the 5th. This proved to make quite a difference to the overall sound and produced a much bigger fuller sound.
I think that he is a magnificent conductor - I well remember his magnificent performances of Pfitzner's Palestrina at CG in 1997 and recently the brilliant concert from Salzburg with Renee Fleming singing Strauss Lieder and The Alpensinfonie in the second half.
He does not come to GB much being so busy with Dresden, Vienna and the Festivals - Bayreuth where, as far as I know, he is still music director, and Salzburg where his Strauss is second to none.
his recent performances of Frau Ohne Schatten there were very much admired.
I watched him 3 days ago conducting a New Year's Eve concert from Dresden , comprising of Operetta from Berlin and Broadway musicals. His feeling for Gershwin and Bernstein was no less than for Paul Linke and Oscar Straus.
As for his recordings,
I would nominate the recent Brahms first Piano Co with Pollini as being a great performance, although it was dismissed by the reviewer on the recent BaL.
His Schumann cycle with the Philharmonia is equally excellent , amazingly NLA.
Although I am not comparing them, his career closely parallels that of Rudolf Kempe.
Great opera interpreter, great orchestral conductor, but did not reach the heights in record sales.
He is so much better live than in some of his studio recordings.
His Wagner recordings would be number one if he had had comparable casts to those versions recorded by Solti , Karajan ect.
I have the Blu-Ray set of the Beethoven Symphonies with the VPO and can say that numbers 3, 4, 6 and 7 definitely do it for me. The recent China concert(above) confirms to me his Beethoven credentials.
His concerts with Brahms and Bruckner symphonies that I have attended would certainly make me seek out more of the same whenever he cares to do it.
The German press certainly see him as the no 1 candidate to succeed SSR in Berlin in the near future.

[makropulos]

Fascinating MM today with a very interesting interview, ranging widely, and very open and friendly wth TS, first name terms not the expected stiff German. How many people called Karajan Herbert [apart from James Galway that is]? The man is urbane and thoughtful but has a somewhat controversial reputation, even allegedly having right wing tendencies. What do we think of him as an interpreter? Are there any esential recordings of his?

Some of his views reflect some that Karajan made in his various interviews, especially about politics and Art. A propos of the extra musical meaning in music I am reminded of a story about Toscanini when rehearsing Eroica: "Issa not Napoleon, issa not 'itler, issa not Mussolini issa Allegro con brio!" or words to that effect, these things get embroidered in the telling.

On the basis of what I've heard, I'd say he's neither hero nor villain - since he's not musically interesting enough to be either. My experience has been of recordings (CD and DVD) - but rather a lot of those have disappointed. The Beethoven set on Sony was deeply underwhelming, his Tristan (DG) was ponderous, a Bruckner 8 with the Staatskapelle was strangely unilluminating... and so on. And if he can't assemble respectable casts for a "Ring" before recording it, then he should simply wait until he can. He has to take some of the blame for agreeing to make (and allowing the release) of badly sung operas that he's conducting (usually in a way I find sluggish, by the way).

Doubtless this is a personal things - I suppose there are just some conductors whose work doesn't leave any sort of positive impression, and I'm afraid that CT for me is one of those. For others, it is clearly different, and I hope to be persuaded one of these days that there's something more interesting there.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

his recent performances of Frau Ohne Schatten there were very much admired.

- broadcast on R3 in their Thursday afternoon slot. Great performance of a hugely undervalued work.

His Wagner recordings would be number one if he had had comparable casts to those versions recorded by Solti , Karajan ect.

- the conducting and orchestral playing (and the recorded sound) is superb, But the voices: so often forced, wobbly and strained beyond their Musical skills.

[Zucchini]

My overwhelming recollection is of the ferocity of his aftershave, which gusted in our direction with his every move

Usually means the maestro has recently been with the COE led by Lorenza Borrani and is still feeling a bit frisky. But could it have been Lorenza's perfume and he hadn't washed since acquiring it...?