How much attention?

[johnb]

A couple of thoughts

I'm not at all sure that the argument holds that because people cannot give their undivided attention to the music you should only broadcast fairly lightweight short pieces or snippets. Before the dive into CFM territory there were often substantial works on the early morning drive time programme - I distinctly remember gripped by Mravinsky's Sibelius 7 as I was driving to work (from Bristol to Birmingham) one morning.

Some forty-odd years ago I used to attend the local Russian/Polish Orthodox Church (as an agnostic come atheist). The services were usually around three hours and people would wander in and out, sometimes popping out for a cigarette break in the porch. (There were no pews or seats in the church apart from round the walls, so people could move around easily. The priest used be very relaxed about this, saying that people would still get something very important from the services even if they couldn't be there for the complete duration. Perhaps there is a parallel argument that can be made for longer pieces on the breakfast slot.

(By the way, I am not advocating people drifting in and out of a concert hall!)

[Petrushka]

Ever since coming to classical music 44 years ago I have always set aside that part of the evening that corresponds to the normal concert hall routine (ie 19.30 - 21.30 approx) for serious listening. Woe betide anyone who interrupts/telephones! It is a useful discipline and in my innocence I fondly imagined that everyone listened that way.

Listening to music as background is absolute anathema to me and I do wonder if some on here are hearing too much music without listening to it. I realise that everybody is different and people's lifestyles are not the same as mine but I disciplined myself in this way as a teenager and have never felt the need to change.

The more you give to the music the more you will get out of it.

[Dave2002]

4) So I look forward to setting aside hours and hours for proper listening when I retire, tho' I'm sure my wife and family have other plans...

Probably won't happen, IMO. You might find you set aside hours for driving to places you don't really want or need to go to, so you can listen, or some other subterfuges. You won't get proper listening, but you may at least hear some music.

Hints: "I just need to go and get some more fittings from B and Q."

OTOH you might be able to persuade "them" to go with you to some interesting live concerts, music festivals etc. which can be rewarding. This could include taking a weekend break in a city such as Berlin or Dresden, or attending a festival in Italy, or going to opera in Budapest, Prague or Vienna, or taking a transatlantic trip to see opera at the Met, or even going to Bayreuth.

I've not done many of these (yet), though have some friends who travel the world listening to Wagner.

[french frank]

Do you mean polyphonic masses written before the 18th century, or contemporary masses? If the former would any have been performed (or used) during church services? I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have been performed in a concert. As for the behaviour of congregations during a service, if my observations of services in Italy are any guide there would have been much coming & going & chatting to neighbours - the church as a social centre.

I mean masses performed at the time they were composed; yes, probably in a cathedral or chapel. Is there any documentary evidence that people engaged in 'slanging matches' or 'culinary or sexual delights' in such a context?

We have 'invented' the context of the concert hall for playing serious/classical music. It isn't the same as the context for pop/rock gigs or jazz sessions. If we were telling people to shut up, keep still and listen in THOSE contexts, people might have a reason to object.

Actually, getting back to the topic, the evidence is that Breakfast is primarily for people with short attention spans rather than those who are simply busy getting ready for the day's work.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The[e Bach Cantatas] were performed in church, so surely the congregation be sitting and listening?

Not necessarily - in the documentary presented by JEG last year, he quite definitely stated that there would be quite a lot of chatter amongst many in the congregation, and even movement around in church during services. The more devout Lutherians would (I assume) pay attention to the sermon and respond to the prayers, but giving the Music any great degree of attention would not be a high priority for most of the church-goers.

[Roehre]

Ever since coming to classical music 44 years ago I have always set aside that part of the evening that corresponds to the normal concert hall routine (ie 19.30 - 21.30 approx) for serious listening. Woe betide anyone who interrupts/telephones! It is a useful discipline and in my innocence I fondly imagined that everyone listened that way.

Listening to music as background is absolute anathema to me and I do wonder if some on here are hearing too much music without listening to it. I realise that everybody is different and people's lifestyles are not the same as mine but I disciplined myself in this way as a teenager and have never felt the need to change.

The more you give to the music the more you will get out of it.

The way I approach music as well, the main difference being that my "musical spare time/ listening time" (I aim at 2 hours/day) often is spread over the day (work commitments primarily ) and hence not concentrated in the evening, though I prefer to listen not distracted by anything but my own thoughts, and therefore if possible when darkness falls/has fallen.

[Don Petter]

They were performed in church, so surely the congregation be sitting and listening?

Whatever they were doing, or expected to be doing by a composer at the time, is there any reason that present listeners should be expected to be doing the same?

We now seem to be suggesting a whole new movement, HIL(istening), presumably also to be imposed by the HIP police.

[Flosshilde]

I mean masses performed at the time they were composed; yes, probably in a cathedral or chapel. Is there any documentary evidence that people engaged in 'slanging matches' or 'culinary or sexual delights' in such a context?

I think that there is evidence that people deposited the end results of 'culinary delights' behind the pillars of the chapel at Versailles - the Augean stables were nothing compared to the annual clean there! I don't know if it happened during the performance of polyphonic masses or after the service was over & most people had departed.

[Flosshilde]

We now seem to be suggesting a whole new movement, HIL(istening), presumably also to be imposed by the HIP police.

Surely the growing trend for applause between movements is part of a developing HIL trend?

I don't know about HIP Police though - shouldn't they be checking out jazz concerts?

[jean]

...if my observations of services in Italy are any guide there would have been much coming & going & chatting to neighbours...

And not very much polyphony, sadly, would be my guess.

My experience doesn't bear this out, though, even for an ordinary low mass; and on the rare occasions when San Marco in Venice could rustle up a choir, there was respectful attention.

Of course, everyone starts chatting and leaving during the final voluntary, but don't they everywhere?

[Anna]

Actually, getting back to the topic, the evidence is that Breakfast is primarily for people with short attention spans rather than those who are simply busy getting ready for the day's work.

And didn't Roger Wright say (it was on another recent thread, one of his Justification Statements) that the problem is people now have the attention span of a gnat so it's difficult to get them to listen because they don't know how to any more? But, how will they ever learn to listen if you persist in serving up bleeding chunks?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Whatever they were doing, or expected to be doing by a composer at the time, is there any reason that present listeners should be expected to be doing the same?
We now seem to be suggesting a whole new movement, HIL(istening), presumably also to be imposed by the HIP police.

Except that listening to pre-Wagnerian Music in reverential silence is not "HI", so any such police would be taking those who so listen away to assist them with their enquiries.

You are quite right: each individual chooses for her/himself "how much attention" s/he gives to a work, whether Literature or the performing or Visual Arts. Or politics, History, Geography, the Sciences. But, as Petrushka has already wisely said on this Thread, the more attention you are prepared to give to all these fields of human activity, the more they give back to you.

[Don Petter]

Except that listening to pre-Wagnerian Music in reverential silence is not "HI", so any such police would be taking those who so listen away to assist them with their enquiries.

They could, perhaps, take a more enlightened 'educational' approach, suggesting people make sure their mobiles are switched on, and handing out crisps and popcorn?

[Ferretfancy]

They could, perhaps, take a more enlightened 'educational' approach, suggesting people make sure their mobiles are switched on, and handing out crisps and popcorn?

I think they had done just that at a Barbican concert I attended recently. A rather large lady sat sideways in her seat next to me, feeding crisps to two young teenagers before sending one out for a programme just as the conductor came onto the platform. After the first item they all left!

[french frank]

And didn't Roger Wright say (it was on another recent thread, one of his Justification Statements) that the problem is people now have the attention span of a gnat so it's difficult to get them to listen because they don't know how to any more? But, how will they ever learn to listen if you persist in serving up bleeding chunks?

I'm not sure that he referred to gnats but he has more than once referred to "us" having shorter attention spans. In the recent article he also said new listeners needed to be 'trained' to listen.

But further, the non stop 'variety' - presenter chat, reading of tweets, news headlines, piece of music, trail, hello Rob, what have you got on Essential Classics to day, plus the rapid change from Bach to Gershwin to Chopin to Star Wars reflects the way television works now, with rapid scene changes so that viewers don't get bored.

The changes in musical styles every six minutes or so can be the only reason for the single movements. It doesn't make sense to say single movements are fine in the mornings when you haven't time to 'listen to a whole symphony'. If they were to play a whole symphony, what's the difference between leaving home after the first of four movements and listening to a single movement? Either way you hear a truncated work. But gnats get fed up with 'the same piece of music' for 30 minutes or so. With no breaks for chat.