Definitions - music

[MrGongGong]

Interesting stuff thanks .....

On the other hand, string quartet accompaniments (eg to McCartney's "Yesterday") woud not be.

I think it would be if it was presented in the context of a lunchtime concert at the Wigmore hall

Is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vYzrD9eBE

a "Symphony" which isn't "Classical Music" ? (I think it is)

The more one thinks about it the more subject outgrows narrow definitional boundaries.

Well put

[LeMartinPecheur]

I think it would be if it [McCartney's quartet-backed 'Yesterday'] was presented in the context of a lunchtime concert at the Wigmore hall

Which raises interesting questions about the music on this double-CD http://www.amazon.co.uk/Douce-France...rsberg+chanson I tend to the view - not having heard it but tempted, as I always am by Ms von Otter - that CD1 is classical but CD2 ain't, even if presented live at the Wigmore Hall

Just my view: I'm here (behind the sofa) to be shot at!

[french frank]

If i transcribe the same music for Big Band will it become "Jazz" ?

No, it will become 'crossover'

[MrGongGong]

No, it will become 'crossover'

or, in other words, cr*p ?

Learning musics from other cultures can be a great way of thinking about some of these things.
So discovering that the fetishisation of the WORK isn't in any way universal is a revelation

[Flosshilde]

When did it begin to be common practice to refer to 'classical' music, rather than 'music'?

[french frank]

So discovering that the fetishisation of the WORK isn't in any way universal is a revelation

Indeed, you can tinker with any work ad libitum:

[french frank]

When did it begin to be common practice to refer to 'classical' music, rather than 'music'?

1829

[french frank]

1829

Just in case anyone thought I was trying to be humorous:

1829 V. Novello Diary 26 July in V. Novello & M. Novello Mozart Pilgrimage (1955) 181 This is the place I should come to every Sunday when I wished to hear classical music correctly and judiciously performed.

[LeMartinPecheur]

When did it begin to be common practice to refer to 'classical' music, rather than 'music'?

OED's first reference to 'classical music' is from 1836 and epitomises this thread: "What is the meaning of the word 'classical' in a musical sense?"

An 1885 quote begs plenty of Qs as it looks as if it is still stuck in the 'Classical = Pre-Romantic" sense:

"'Classic' is used in two senses. In the one it means having permanent interest and value...In the second sense ...music written in a particular style, aiming at the embodiment of a certain ideal,, the chief element of which is beauty of form...In classical music in this sense, form is first and emotional content subordinate; in romantic music content is first and form subordinate."

My OED is a pretty old edition, the 2-vol read-with-magnifying-glass-provided version given away by a certain book club in the 70s. Does anyone have a later one with an updated treatment of this tricky term? We probably also need to check whether the term originated abroad - Germany perchance?

[french frank]

My OED was the up to date online edition ...

In fact, it doesn't have the 1836 quote, but this one is also interesting:

1856 Jrnl. Soc. Arts 18 July 605/2 The Limerick Harmonic Society is now furnished with a concert room, where classical music can be heard by a large audience.

[LeMartinPecheur]

My OED was the up to date online edition ...

In fact, it doesn't have the 1836 quote, but this one is also interesting:

1856 Jrnl. Soc. Arts 18 July 605/2 The Limerick Harmonic Society is now furnished with a concert room, where classical music can be heard by a large audience.

Thanks ff. So what we need now is the Limerick Harmonic Society's 1856 playlists and then all will be clear(?)

Slightly more seriously, one really needs to get hold of the 1829 Vincent Novello in person and ask him whether he meant 'the music from the time of Haydn and Mozart', 'any serious, notated music, of any age up to today's', or what Perhaps the context provides more clarity, but I don't appear to have my edition to hand

[french frank]

Thanks ff. So what we need now is the Limerick Harmonic Society's 1856 playlists and then all will be clear(?)

Well, I'd say the 1829 quote would suggest a fairly general meaning of 'not modern music', 'historic music'. But it may well, in effect, have meant Haydn/Mozart, even if that wasn't the same sense in which we use the term. 1829 was in fact the date of the performance of the Matthew Passion, under Mendelssohn's supervision, so at that time pre 'Classical' [our narrow sense]wouldn't have been much performed(?).

[Quarky]

Yes, it is most important that the year on year comparisons are consistent - that has been achieved and is very interesting to consider. As we're comparing like with like, conclusions can be drawn from the information.

I suppose what nags me is the simple question (in theory) of categories. If we find it difficult to categorise a piece of music, we must first have the definition and parameters of the categories available to apply to the work. Surely?

Maybe classical music can't be defined? If we can't categorise/define classic music, how, in the final analysis, will we know whether more or less of it is being programmed?

As the discussion shows, it is a mistake IMV to attempt to define or categorise a piece of music by reference to definitions, consisting of a series of words, sentences or paragraphs, no matter the extreme care may have been exercised in constructing the definitions - there will always be borderline cases which upset the definition.

Best way forward imv is SC's approach of constructing a database. The totality of the database defines what is meant by Classical Music, at least as far as the BBC understands it (I guess Classic FM's definition would be a much restricted database). If there are some works broadcast by R3 which cannot be included in SC's database, then perhaps there should be one or more subsidiary databases dealing with these unclassifiable or miscellaneous works, for completeness.

In regard to Jazz, this strikes me as a completely impossible task. There are so many versions of Jazz which are currently broadcast, ranging from Claire Theale, through Jamie Cullum, to Jezz Nelson. It comes down to the individual imv and what the individual "likes". There are books available by Gunther Schuller and Alyn Shipton, which deal with it on an historical basis, but even such an encyclopaedic work as Alyn's is not free of his personal tastes.

And that's just music broadcast on R3. Considering music distributed on CDs, music played in British concert halls, one would need a Google type computer to make some sense of it.

Maybe the best definition is Wayne Shorter's: music is just a drop in the ocean of life.

[doversoul1]

So if we are/were to formulate a definition of classical music for the purpose of discussing ‘what do we mean by classical music when we discuss the type of music that Radio3 should be playing?’ what the definition will/would look like?

After all, this is what matter to us on the forum (and not where classical music stops and Jazz start etc), is it not?

Oddball

there will always be borderline cases which upset the definition.

I thought you set up a definition for the very purpose of avoiding the upset, or what’s the use of a definition?

[LeMartinPecheur]

If we're losing the fire in the belly and coming close to agreement on 'There's no definition' / 'Let's agree to disagree', may I attempt to reignite things with this excellent pair of usages (abusages? - there really ought to be such a word!)?

Courtesy of Amazon - 100 R&B Classics: The Anthems




[I've been bitterly disappointed with some of the 'Favourite Anthems' CDs I've bought lately...]