Musical questions and answers thread

[Richard Barrett]

Late 18th and most 19th Century Music makes great use of Perfect Cadences - often a the expense of the other types. For an example of a Symphonic Movement that ends with a Plagal Cadence (in this case, F major to C major) there's the First Movement of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique or (for a louder example) the end of the First Movement of Sibelius' Third. (The very first cadence in that work, when the brass gently join the opening 'celli & Basses, is also a Plagal Cadence.)

The Finale of Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings has a blatant Imperfect Cadence - where the Final melody comes to a halt, and the very opening of the first Movement reappears. The end of the first song in Schumann's cummings ist der Dichterliebe ("Im wunderschonen monat Mai" also ends with an Imperfect Cadence.

And you have the Phrygian cadence between the two movements of the Third Brandenburg Concerto, that's an easy one to spot.

[jayne lee wilson]

Oh yes, sorry about that - (I don't have German and was going on failing memory) - thanks Bryn for the correction.

Years back, I actually heard Boulez in conversation on Radio 3 confirm this - his reply about the title was "I don't know yet, but Cummings is the Poet.."

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And you have the Phrygian cadence between the two movements of the Third Brandenburg Concerto, that's an easy one to spot.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Re Plagal cadences, I challenge anyone to harmonise Good King Wenceslas without any parallel/consecutive octaves.

[Richard Barrett]

Re Plagal cadences, I challenge anyone to harmonise Good King Wenceslas without any parallel/consecutive octaves.

Not a problem! (if it's allowed to be atonal)

[Serial_Apologist]

Not nearly as easy as I'd presumed - composers tend to play with conventions rather than provide clear examples of them! (So inconsiderate! ) But the famous Chorale setting of "Erkenne mich, mein huter" ("O Sacred Head Sore Wounded") from the St Matthew Passion gives some examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpci8m1cQo0

With Chorales, the ends of phrases are shown by fermatas ("pause marks" as they became, but weren't intended as such in this context during Bach's time). Here, the first Cadence occurs in the second bar, at the word "huter". It's a Perfect cadence, Dominant to Tonic (B major to E major).

There's another Perfect cadence two bars later, at "mich an" - but this time in a different key (G# major to C#minor).

The next four bars (up to "Guts getan") are a literal repeat of the first four bars of Music (with different words) so the next Cadence is in Bar 10, at "gelabet": this is a Plagal Cadence (Subdominant to Tonic): A major to E major.

In bar 12 (the second bar of the last system/line) at "susser Kost", the cadence ends on C# major - which sounds "incomplete", because it's the Dominant chord of F# (as if he's starting to modulate to that key, but doesn't get there). A Cadence that ends on a Dominant chord is an Imperfect Cadence.

Instead of modulating to F#, Bach immediately turns the expected chord of F# into an F#7 chord (F# A# C# E) which he sustains throughout the next phrase which ends (at "begabet") on a Perfect Cadence (F# major - B major) in B major. This B major chord is itself the Dominant of the Home Key of E major, with which the chorale ends with a perfect cadence.



[The only Cadence not used in this Chorale is the Interrupted Cadence, which is when a Dominant Chord - which we expect to move back to the Tonic chord - moves instead to a different chord, almost always the submediant. In E major, a simple Interrupted Cadence would be B major to C# minor - which doesn't happen here. BUT in bar 4, the cadence does end on a C# minor chord. What Bach is doing is enhancing what otherwise would have been a straightforward Interrupted Cadence - if he'd used a simple Dominant to submediant chord progression in E major - by replacing the more ordinary B major chord (on the word "mich") with G# major. Even in "simple" harmonizations of hymn tunes, Bach uncovers a rich seam of harmonic and tonal possibilities.]

Thanks ever so much for offering such clear explanations, which are truly your forte, ferney - I hadn't known previously what a Plagal cadence was! It's wonderful to realise that there are names to be given to all the fruitless harmonic meanderings I've spent all these years doing at the piano!

[jean]

..."As for your work, Cummings ist der dichter ..."

Shouldn't that be "cummings ist der Dichter ..." ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Shouldn't that be "cummings ist der Dichter ..." ?

The title of Boulez' work is Cummings ist der Dichter:

https://www.universaledition.com/composers-and-works/pierre-boulez-88/works/cummings-ist-der-dichter-1768

... but you're right to point out that the secretary's letter (as quoted in the Boulez/Deliege book) used a capital letter on "Dichter".

[Serial_Apologist]

The title of Boulez' work is Cummings ist der Dichter:

https://www.universaledition.com/composers-and-works/pierre-boulez-88/works/cummings-ist-der-dichter-1768

... but you're right to point out that the secretary's letter (as quoted in the Boulez/Deliege book) used a capital letter on "Dichter".

I understand that German nouns require a capital letter: in this instance that wouldn't necessarily apply to a poet or anyone else who preferred not to have their name capitalised; but it's a funny old world, innit!

[jean]

I realise it's more complicated than I thought.

...publishers and editors became confused as to how Cummings would want his own name capitalized or decapitalized. Many times you will see his name as "e.e. cummings", and other times it will be "E.E. Cummings". Rumors circulated that he had officially changed his name to the decapitalized form of the name, but those rumors were quickly dispelled by Cummings' widow. In one of the published collections of poems, put together and prefaced by Harry T. Moore, Moore discusses his capitalization mannerisms to the reader:

" If I don't use capitals for e. e. Cummings, it isn't just a stunt. He had his name put legally into lower case, and in his later books the titles and his name were always in lower case. And I have a weaknessfor Edmund Wilson's rendition of Cummings, in his FINNEGANS WAKE parody, as hee hee cunnings. So be it—all this goes with the iconoclasm of the twenties, with its unpunctuated, uncapitalized Poetry. The lower case is a kind of continuing talisman of cummings, though it doesn't embed him in the twenties."

When Marion, Cummings' widow, read this, she shot back to one of the publishers of the book in a letter: "you should not have allowed H. Moore to make such a stupid & childish statement about Cummings & his signature." ...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I understand that German nouns require a capital letter: in this instance that wouldn't necessarily apply to a poet or anyone else who preferred not to have their name capitalised; but it's a funny old world, innit!

- the "error" in this instance supposedly originates in a letter from a secretary at Universal Edition, who might not have been aware of mr cummings' preference. The lack of the capital D in my original is entirely my own haste - in that discussion of the work's title, Boulez refers to "Cummings is the poet", and I just transferred the anglophile lower-case noun.

[Joseph K]

Worth bearing in mind - and this I know from looking at their better, more advanced harmony texts - America has different terminology for cadences, e.g. a perfect cadence is called an authentic cadence, which itself is either perfect or imperfect according whether the top voice rises from 7 to 1.

[jean]

I've probably asked this before.

With our tradional, Western division of the octave into twelve semitones comes a difficulty in tuning the smaller intervals.

If we had chosen instead a larger number of stopping points on our way to the upper octave, could we have avoided uncomfotable compromises like equal temperament?

[MrGongGong]

I've probably asked this before.

With our tradional, Western division of the octave into twelve semitones comes a difficulty in tuning the smaller intervals.

If we had chosen instead a larger number of stopping points on our way to the upper octave, could we have avoided uncomfotable compromises like equal temperament?

Harry Partch lives

I think (and i'm no expert) it's only "uncomfortable" in relation to expectations?

[jean]

I agree that most of us have come to expect the compromises of equal temperament, certainly not to find them unbearable.

But that doesn't answer my question.