Musical questions and answers thread

[ahinton]

As a native Parisienne, I would hope Anne Queffélec was indeed familiar with French usage. Fascinating YouTube item, by the way.

I didn't know that you were a native Parieienne (a tiresome pedant writes...)

[Stanfordian]

Usually, the end of a phrase (and the chord progressions chosen to mark these).

Does the music fade away/quieten ?

[ahinton]

.... I agree with Highland Dougie - "se jouer" is the standard form of what in English would be put into the passive "This piece is to be played.."

Le Petit Robert gives : SE JOUER - être joué (jeu, musique, théâtre... ) Ce jeu se joue à quatre...

And Littré has : Se jouer, être joué, en parlant d'un instrument de musique, d'un morceau de musique. Ceci se joue à quatre mains. Cet instrument se joue avec la bouche, avec les doigts.

Sorabji even has something like it (albeit in somewhat incorrect and/or idiomatic Italian) in the title of his 1946 concerto for piano solo - Concerto per suonare da me solo; when the late Yonty Solomon premièred it more than 30 years later, it must have been an unique example of a performance of a work negating its title...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A "cadenza" gets its name from the fact that a florrid display of a soloists's skill usually appeared at a Cadence point - usually (I don't know of any that don't) as part of a Perfect Cadence (Dominant to Tonic): the cadenza would appear between the orchestra belting out the Dominant chord, and the reappearance of the orchestra (after the showing-off stuff) resolving the chord with the Tonic. (The First Movement of the Brahms Violin concerto, for example - the orchestra loudly goes "da da da - DAAA!" (ending on a Amajor chord) as if saying "Over to you, Yehudi", the soloist does his stuff (which can go on as long as the soloist likes, so to make clear "I've finished now", it ends on an extended trill) and then the orchestra takes over with a resolution of its previous chord (A major) on D major, the home key/"Tonic" of the work.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does the music fade away/quieten ?

It doesn't have to - there are plenty of cadence points which have a crescendo, either to "swell" into the next phrase, or to make a "big climax" at the end.

[french frank]

.
... I agree with Highland Dougie - "se jouer" is the standard form of what in English would be put into the passive "This piece is to be played.."

One for Pedants' Paradise, but if the verb 'se jouer' has the force of a passive, it still has to have a subject ('Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif'). If 'ce motif' is the subject, the word order is very odd. It appears to be the object of 'se jouer'. I would offer the alternative meaning of 'se jouer', namely 'in order to play with ease', 'in order to make easy work of playing').

[Serial_Apologist]

One for Pedants' Paradise, but if the verb 'se jouer' has the force of a passive, it still has to have a subject ('Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif'). If 'ce motif' is the subject, the word order is very odd. It appears to be the object of 'se jouer'. I would offer the alternative meaning of 'se jouer', namely 'in order to play with ease', 'in order to make easy work of playing').

Or maybe it just plays itself???

[Lat-Literal]

Sorabji even has something like it (albeit in somewhat incorrect and/or idiomatic Italian) in the title of his 1946 concerto for piano solo - Concerto per suonare da me solo; when the late Yonty Solomon premièred it more than 30 years later, it must have been an unique example of a performance of a work negating its title...

Where are we exactly on Sorabji? Have the discs and the biography been issued yet? It isn't relevant here. But this, as you kindly informed us, was a man who let you in although on the garden gate there was a sign saying "keep out". Marvellous idiosyncrasy of which Satie would be proud - I am a mere novice by comparison - but in what is an interesting section of this thread, I choose a psychological dimension. That the ambiguity of se jouer itself is an accurate reflection of the ambiguity in art and even life generally. That the distinction between for others and for self is essentially false, that the two overlap, and that depending on the individual a perception that it is one rather than the other whichever it is can equate to ease. As for any notions of "playing itself", especially in an area I view positively, albeit a view that is not universally shared, I'd probably be contemplating Nancarrow - for someone has to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWnK5DImdlU

[Bryn]

. . . As for any notions of "playing itself", especially in an area I view positively, albeit a view that is not universally shared, I'd probably be contemplating Nancarrow - for someone has to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWnK5DImdlU

Juergen Hocker's yer man when it comes to high definition Nancarrow. Those Bösendorfer and Fischer set-ups he has are something else. Very well worth investigating, along with the Other Minds CD set, et al.

[Lat-Literal]

Juergen Hocker's yer man when it comes to high definition Nancarrow. Those Bösendorfer and Fischer set-ups he has are something else. Very well worth investigating, along with the Other Minds CD set, et al.

Thank you Bryn.

I found the Nancarrow discs very expensive and went for Metzmacher because I was able to get a cheap copy but I had my doubts and was also too uninformed to decide very clearly. It was at the time a case of having at least something from all the composers who appealed to me while being on a limited budget. Cost is quite symptomatic of the "avant-garde" and less popular composers generally. That on occasions led to dilemmas as it was my main leaning. To the less popular. While conventional ish, I paid huge as a one off for Tailleferre and Cras.

[Bryn]

Thank you Bryn.

I found the Nancarrow discs very expensive and went for Metzmacher because I was able to get a cheap copy but I had my doubts and was also too uninformed to decide very clearly. It was at the time a case of having at least something from all the composers who appealed to me while being on a limited budget. Cost is quite symptomatic of the "avant-garde" and less popular composers generally. That on occasions led to dilemmas as it was my main leaning. To the less popular. While conventional ish, I paid huge as a one off for Tailleferre and Cras.

You might find https://www.otherminds.org/nancarrow-at-100/ of interest. I participated in the crowd-funding, so have mp3s (only 160kbps, unfortunately) of the whole proceedings. The Rex Lawson perfromance of the player-piano transcription of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is stunning.

[Lat-Literal]

You might find https://www.otherminds.org/nancarrow-at-100/ of interest. I participated in the crowd-funding, so have mp3s (only 160kbps, unfortunately) of the whole proceedings. The Rex Lawson perfromance of the player-piano transcription of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is stunning.

Thank you Bryn. That's very good, As a generalist, there are a fair number of composers on that website who interest me - Antheil, Cowell, Oliveros - and to some extent Cage and Zappa plus a few that I just don't know and have yet to explore. There is no way that I identify as a "Hear and Now" person but there is no doubt I hover on the edges of it and am generally open-minded. Like Gong Gong, I am very much looking forward to the Derbyshire and Oram Prom, for example. It looks to me like one of the potential highlights this year.

[vinteuil]

One for Pedants' Paradise, but if the verb 'se jouer' has the force of a passive, it still has to have a subject ('Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif'). If 'ce motif' is the subject, the word order is very odd. It appears to be the object of 'se jouer'. I would offer the alternative meaning of 'se jouer', namely 'in order to play with ease', 'in order to make easy work of playing').

... That is a very attractive interpretation, thank you. And is supported by Littré -

"Se jouer... faire quelque chose en se jouant, faire quelque chose en s'amusant, sans effort. / Dans le style élevé, se jouer se dit de choses auxquelles on attribue une sorte de dessein de se divertir... "

Whether Vexations can ever be performed sans effort ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexations

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[Stanfordian]

It doesn't have to - there are plenty of cadence points which have a crescendo, either to "swell" into the next phrase, or to make a "big climax" at the end.

Thanks very much! I think I'm with you. I was wondering if you suggest a obvious example that I can maybe view on YouTube?

[Stanfordian]

Boulez - 'cummings ist der Dichter'

I would like to obtain the English texts to Pierre Boulez's work 'cummings ist der Dichter' for 16 solo voices or mixed choir and instruments, a setting of verse by American poet E.E. Cummins.

I will be grateful if anyone can please share them with me or point me in the right direction. I have a recording of the work conducted by Boulez on Erato/Apex but there are no texts included.