Musical questions and answers thread

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That'll be the one: only heard (to my knowledge/memory) on a flute before, but that's the sort of sound produced.
Hadn't thought of an Italian expression for it.
Ciao!


(A frullato is really an Italian milkshake-type/smoothie thing in my experience, though!)

It dies sound as if it should be an ice cream, doesn't it! There's a famous brass fluttertongue towards the end of Rhapsody in Blue.

The wonderful Harry Sparnaay explains the various techniques here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1DdXGeZtQ

[Flay]

Surely in this case Fr means fare le fusa?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely in this case Fr means fare le fusa?

- and that cat-like rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr sound is exactly how you fluttertongue.

(Unlike Sparnaay, I can fluttertongue easily - a rather useless ability, as I don't play a wind instrument! - but cannot "gargle" with a dry throat.)

An oboe player once told me that "flutter throat" is easier for double reed instrumentalists.

[Flay]

Ferney, your link distracted me to Paws for bass clarinet

Here the symbol used for flutter tongueing is a triple slash across the stem of the note.

There is another new gem: bisbigliando (whispering) which appears to be a trill on the same note using alternative fingering.

And there is a vertical oblong between widely stretched chords. I wonder if that is to utilise the unusual woodwind fluttering effect: on the oboe^* lifting the ring finger of the left hand (that would be the note G) while playing low E or D gives a funny alternating harmonic. Does anyone know?

Then there's a sloping line for glissando. As ferney said, we learn.



^*I had to dig my old oboe out of the wardrobe. Perhaps I'll leave it out and get the old reeds soaking

[Richard Barrett]

An oboe player once told me that "flutter throat" is easier for double reed instrumentalists.

This is because you put a lot less air into them, and fluttertonguing is easier the more air is going through the mouth cavity. (This is also why oboists sometimes need to exhale a little at the end of a phrase before inhaling again.)

But really, this Denisov example is not extreme at all, and stands clearly in a line of descent from Shostakovich. It may contain a few things that wouldn't be familiar to people whose knowledge of instrumental and notational practices doesn't extend past the beginning of the 20th century (and this would apply to very many "elite" musicians in fact), but there's nothing in it that wouldn't be familiar to anyone who's actually likely to play it. Furthermore most of its seemingly avant-garde feature have also been familiar for centuries in one tradition of music or another - the Karnatic music of south India involves for more complex rhythmical subdivisions, for example, and Arabic/Persian/Turkish music involves a systematic use of microtones.

I note also that the Youtube video of Denisov is performed by the excellent Belarus-born clarinettist and composer Gleb Kanasevich, who can also be seen on Youtube performing what seems like a significant proportion of the contemporary solo repertoire for his instruments, including even this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDfZHK0nh9E

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Bisbigliando" is a term encountered in harp Music - two different strings produce the same pitch, and the player "trills" between them. There's a similar technique for the guitar family, which is has a lovely Spanish name which I can't for the life of me remember!

The oblong between the two notes indicates a multiphonic, in which the top and bottom notes can be clearly heard, but any notes in between are aleotoric (they depend on the instrument's construction, and the player's mouth shape, so can't be accurately notated). Here's Mr Sparnaay again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMjBbwgFaio

The way Flay describes the technique suggests that he is talking about the same thing.

[ahinton]

(Just like learning how to play 7:5 or whatever, he says, emphasising the point. . )

Indeed - or 7:6, as in - er - Chopin's Nocturne in D flat Op. 27 No. 2...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed - or 7:6, as in - er - Chopin's Nocturne in D flat Op. 27 No. 2...

Indeed - there are quite a few such ratios in Chopin's Music. It's just that many Pianists just make a vague fumbling around whilst muttering "rubato" to themselves.

[Pabmusic]

...It's just that many Pianists just make a vague fumbling around whilst muttering "rubato" to themselves.

Well, that cheered me up!

[ahinton]

Indeed - there are quite a few such ratios in Chopin's Music. It's just that many Pianists just make a vague fumbling around whilst muttering "rubato" to themselves.

There are indeed and they do indeed (well, some of them in the latter case, anyway!); the reason that I mentioned this particular example in Chopin is that Chopin has not only been one of the composers whose work has most been affected by pianists' habitual rubatising but was also very strict about the control of anything that might be deemed rhythmic plasticity (hence the practising with the metronome business).

[french frank]

whilst muttering "rubato" to themselves.

[Richard Barrett]

"Bisbigliando" is a term encountered in harp Music - two different strings produce the same pitch, and the player "trills" between them.

The word is indeed often used to describe a similar effect produced by alternative fingerings of the same pitch on woodwind instruments.

a multiphonic, in which the top and bottom notes can be clearly heard, but any notes in between are aleotoric (they depend on the instrument's construction, and the player's mouth shape, so can't be accurately notated).

That isn't necessarily the case though. Some multiphonics consist very clearly of only two pitches, others might vary in the way you suggest, while still others consist of larger or smaller numbers of pitches which can not only be notated but which are also reliable and consistent across players and instruments. I think the best way to notate a multiphonic is to put into the score the most prominent pitches (which might well not be the lowest and highest!), plus the fingering and any other necessary indications of embouchure and so forth. This way any player will be clear about what to do and what the desired sonic result is.

[EdgeleyRob]

Indeed - there are quite a few such ratios in Chopin's Music. It's just that many Pianists just make a vague fumbling around whilst muttering "rubato" to themselves.

[Flay]

A fresh subject: do first violins remain first violins and second violins likewise? Is it usual for players to remain in the same position or are they swapped around? How do players move up the ranks? Is it by audition, dead man's shoes, mutual agreement? Is the pay the same for the whole section, or does it diminish down the desks?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It used to be the case that some British orchestras would employ "rank and file" violinists, who would take turns between Firsts and Seconds, changing between concerts/programmes. I don't know how widespread this practice ever was or if it still exists.

Not sure what the situation is in Quartets - I think most have permanent First and Second "chairs".