Musical questions and answers thread

[Pabmusic]

...I can't think of any composer who literally couldn't play an instrument at all.

For what it's worth, neither can I.

[Richard Barrett]

The internet throws up the following names as being poor performers at best.
Webern, Wagner,William Schumann, Milton Babbitt, Xenakis.

Webern earned his living as a conductor for many years, and would probably have become better known as such if his career hadn't been cut short by official disapproval of his compositions. Xenakis was highly active in conceiving and operating the complex sound systems used for his more spectacular electronic productions, which seems to fall under kea's original definition of performance. I don't know so much about the others. Personally I have no formal training on any instrument, or in composition for that matter. I think a creative involvement with music is almost bound to have some kind of physical component, unless this is prevented by disability. Music is a physical phenomenon after all.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Might be worth looking at medieval composers?

Possibly - but mediaeval composers (at least those who were able to commit their work to script) were either professionals employed to teach and provide Music for liturgical use - so had to be proficient "performers" in church services - or wealthy amateurs, whose "breeding" and education demanded proficiency on an instrument and/or as a singer (performing in private; just as they wrote poems to impress their close social "network". This often made quite ridiculous demands on how the resulting works were presented - they must on no account be seen to be "practising": a true gentleman had the breeding to be able spontaneously to produce finished works! Poor souls: life must have been so demanding for them.)

[ahinton]

Personally I have no formal training on any instrument, or in composition for that matter.

Didn't you take piano lessons at one point, though? OK, I have no idea about your level of achievement at the instrument, but do you think that your study of the instrument impacted in some way upon what you have been able to accomplished as a composer?

[kea]

I might be wrong, but I would think Pierre Schaeffer and Pierre Henry, the two originators of musique concrete, fall into the category of non-instrumentalist composers you are looking for.

And many improviser who are unable or unwilling to put notes on paper or sounds on tape, let alone read music, are nevertheless excellent musicians, in my view. I would count them as composers.

The Pierres I believe could do sound design for performances (or diffusions or whatever they're called >.>) of their works, probably not a surprise of course since it takes a certain amount of those performance skills to create electronic music in the first place.

Improvisers who can't "compose" in the traditional way are the flip side, obviously, and I suspect they have an advantage there...

... well, Berlioz I suppose :

He was, however, quite a conductor....

Indeed; one of the most famous and skilled (his guitar playing was probably pretty good as well, though I don't know if he could have performed). The same applies to a few others who didn't really have a primary instrument: Wagner, Rimsky-Korsakov, Webern, ... (all pianists as well, but not at a professional level)

If "poor performers" means "not up to professional concert standard", then the list gets rather longer. But those having no performing ability at all - I can't think of any.

That's more or less what I thought, yes. It also seems like the list of those "not up to professional concert standard" is fairly short if one includes conductors.

Personally I have no formal training on any instrument, or in composition for that matter.

That doesn't preclude being able to perform at a professional level of course, which you do as an improviser & possibly elsewhere as well.

I think a creative involvement with music is almost bound to have some kind of physical component, unless this is prevented by disability. Music is a physical phenomenon after all.

Most likely true. It seems a reasonable corollary that (except where disability is concerned) any involvement with music that isn't physical (or avoids physicality) is also not truly creative.

[Richard Barrett]

It seems a reasonable corollary that (except where disability is concerned) any involvement with music that isn't physical (or avoids physicality) is also not truly creative.

Intuitively I feel you're right, although there must be an exception somewhere.

I mentioned the lack of formal training mainly to emphasise that this isn't a prerequisite.

Composers of the mediaeval period were often known as singers first and foremost. We think of them as composers now because their written music is all we have. As throughout history, musical training would begin with performance and move from there to creation.

There are of course plenty of untrained people making electronic music at home with no background in performance at all, but in order for their work to be recognised it must once more involve skill and originality in working with sounds, which still comes under your definition of performance.

[EdgeleyRob]

What do the terms ruckpositiv and oberwerk mean in the following example of Bach organ music.
I was under the impression they referred to different types of organ or manual yet I haven't seen these instructions that often when looking at examples of Bach scores.
I have googled but seems clear as mud,to me anyhow.

[Bryn]

What do the terms ruckpositiv and oberwerk mean in the following example of Bach organ music.
I was under the impression they referred to different types of organ or manual yet I haven't seen these instructions that often when looking at examples of Bach scores.

They are the two main manuals on the organs of Bach's time. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_%28music%29 for instance, for more detail.

[EdgeleyRob]

They are the two main manuals on the organs of Bach's time. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_%28music%29 for instance, for more detail.

Many thanks Bryn.
I would expect too see these terms in many Bach organ works,this is the first time I've noticed them although admittedly I have only seen a few scores.

[Pulcinella]

The recent Proms performance of Colin Matthews' Berceuse for Dresden reminded me of something I've wondered about for a while and never really sought an answer for: spose I should google!

Can we tell anything about orchestral tuning from the pitches of old church bells?
Do they vary from place to place, like concert pitch in different countries?
I wonder too where the oldest set of UK bells used for change ringing is, and what they are tuned to?

As an aside, were the bells used in the Matthews piece originals or recast?

[EdgeleyRob]

In the Bach-Busoni D Minor Chaconne there is an instruction ......pedale ogni quarto.

I assume it means press the pedal just a quarter of the way down ?
If so does this (and half pedal) make that much much difference to the sound ? and how would the player know which pedal it referred to ?

[subcontrabass]

I wonder too where the oldest set of UK bells used for change ringing is, and what they are tuned to?

They seem to be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Law...hurch,_Ipswich

You can hear them here: http://www.whitechapelbellfoundry.co.uk/newsaa.htm

They seem to be tuned to G flat.

[subcontrabass]

In the Bach-Busoni D Minor Chaconne there is an instruction ......pedale ogni quarto.

I assume it means press the pedal just a quarter of the way down ?

I think it means pedal every quarter note, i.e. every crotchet.

[Pulcinella]

They seem to be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Law...hurch,_Ipswich

You can hear them here: http://www.whitechapelbellfoundry.co.uk/newsaa.htm

They seem to be tuned to G flat.

Many thanks, scb.

Would C20 G flat be C16 G (think I've got that the right way round, if we now have A=440), the leading (recitation) note for the responses? Must be some reason for the key choice.

[EdgeleyRob]

I think it means pedal every quarter note, i.e. every crotchet.

Ah,thank you sub,I seem to have completely misunderstood this,I thought it was similar to half pedal.