Musical questions and answers thread

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What about Stevenson for Scotland?

Lancashire, not Lanarkshire! (Wrong Blackburn!)

[ahinton]

Lancashire, not Lanarkshire! (Wrong Blackburn!)

Oi, stop pinching my lines! I used that one for the first time many years ago! And without wishing to convey the impression of pulling rank or name-dropping, I had a long walk with Ronald Stevenson many years ago along a black burn not far from his delightful cottage in the Pentland village of West Linton -and what a master of the art of conversation RS was!

Arguably, one problem about the idea of Dillon for Scotland, Ferneyhough for England and Barrett for Wales in the particlar context under discussion here is that each has chosen to live well away not only from their native countries but away from Britain as a whole - and I'm not especially convinvced that Dillon regards himself as a "Scottish composer" and even less so that Ferneyhough sees himself as an "English" one or Barrett as a "Welsh" one...

[Pabmusic]

Yes, provided that you also suggest Edward German for ditto of the Shetlands...

Edward German, whose name was Jones.

[doversoul1]

This is an offshoot question of the Classical Jazz… thread.

When did the current ‘Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern (?)’ classification established? More to the point, when did the term ‘classical music’ come to mean Western art music?

My understanding so far is that in the 18th century England, anything before their own time was called ancient music (or something to the effect).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Good question - sometime after the Renaissance?

I'm not sure of exact "timings", but Music tends to follow descriptive trends in the other Arts, so "Romantic" and "Modernist" (and "Post-Modernist") follow on from labels invented in Literature and Visual Arts - painting in the 18th Century, based on aesthetics from "ancient" Greek and Roman artefacts, is often described as "Neo-Classical", but, as there is no Music that survives from those cultures, what the contemporaries of the sons of Bach produced became just "Classical". (And I think you're right about "ancient" Music - the advent of recording has led to a paradigm shift in attitudes towards the Musics of the Western Classical Traditions: before recordings, the vast majority of performance was of New and recent Music, with that of previous centuries a "specialist" enthusiasm - now it's the other way round.)

And whatever happened to "Rococo" as a descriptor? Why was that ditched?

[doversoul1]

Thank you, ferney.

I imagine in the pre-recording days, people talked about the music they listened/played and had no need to say what kind of music they meant. So I assume the term ‘classical music’ is quite a recent invention.

As for Rococo, will this do?

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4786418

[Pabmusic]

'Baroque' was applied to art and architecture in the 19th century, but seemingly not to music until the 20th. Originally (in the visual arts) it was a pejorative term, meaning 'fussy', 'over-ornate' or 'gaudy'.

[Serial_Apologist]

'Baroque' was applied to art and architecture in the 19th century, but seemingly not to music until the 20th. Originally (in the visual arts) it was a pejorative term, meaning 'fussy', 'over-ornate' or 'gaudy'.

Which of course is a little odd when descriptively applied to the de-cluttered musics of CPE Bach and his post-Baroque contemporaries, though there seems no alternative to hand.

[vinteuil]

'Baroque' was applied to art and architecture in the 19th century, but seemingly not to music until the 20th. Originally (in the visual arts) it was a pejorative term, meaning 'fussy', 'over-ornate' or 'gaudy'.

.

And whatever happened to "Rococo" as a descriptor? Why was that ditched?

... I remember my father had on his shelves forbidding tomes - 'Der Barock' and 'Das Rokoko'.

But the wiki pages are a good intro, I think :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rococo

[doversoul1]

but when did ‘classical music’ come to mean Western Art Music, and when did the current historical grouping established?

(sorry to keep on about it but I am curious)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

but when did ‘classical music’ come to mean Western Art Music, and when did the current historical grouping established?

According to Wiki:

The term "classical music" did not appear until the early 19th century, in an attempt to distinctly canonize the period from Johann Sebastian Bach to Beethoven as a golden age. The earliest reference to "classical music" recorded by the Oxford English Dictionary is from about 1836.

... the 1835 OED reference doesn't look as if it refers to a synonym for "the Musics of the Western Classical Traditions", but rather to the specific historic era. There is a quotation from 1885 (JC Fillmore's Pianoforte Music): "Classic" is used in two senses. In the one, it means "having permanent interest and value" ... - which brings the word into the meaning given in the OED for "Classic" (as in "high class"). The Nineteenth Century was principally concerned with differentiating "Classical" from "Romantic". I suppose that with the greater numbers of people hearing orchestral and Chamber Music in the 19th Century, the Romantic repertoire became increasingly accorded "permanent interest and value" status - in which case there are two types of Western Art Music; "Classical" and "Contemporary"

[doversoul1]

According to Wiki:

The term "classical music" did not appear until the early 19th century, in an attempt to distinctly canonize the period from Johann Sebastian Bach to Beethoven as a golden age. The earliest reference to "classical music" recorded by the Oxford English Dictionary is from about 1836.

... the 1835 OED reference doesn't look as if it refers to a synonym for "the Musics of the Western Classical Traditions", but rather to the specific historic era. There is a quotation from 1885 (JC Fillmore's Pianoforte Music): "Classic" is used in two senses. In the one, it means "having permanent interest and value" ... - which brings the word into the meaning given in the OED for "Classic" (as in "high class"). The Nineteenth Century was principally concerned with differentiating "Classical" from "Romantic". I suppose that with the greater numbers of people hearing orchestral and Chamber Music in the 19th Century, the Romantic repertoire became increasingly accorded "permanent interest and value" status - in which case there are two types of Western Art Music; "Classical" and "Contemporary"

Many thanks, ferney‼

…became increasingly accorded "permanent interest and value" status - in which case there are two types of Western Art Music; "Classical" and "Contemporary"

Interesting thought.

[MrGongGong]

but when did ‘classical music’ come to mean Western Art Music, and when did the current historical grouping established?

To me 'classical' music includes Indian Classical music and court musics from other places rather than just the Western Art Music tradition.

[doversoul1]

To me 'classical' music includes Indian Classical music and court musics from other places rather than just the Western Art Music tradition.

Ah, but my question is/was;
When did Western Art Music come to be called Classical Music?

[ahinton]

Ah, but my question is/was;
When did Western Art Music come to be called Classical Music?

My question wouldn't so much be "when?" as "why, how and at whose behest?"...