Musical questions and answers thread

[MrGongGong]

It spreads out a "note" into something more complex, in a more complex perspective with the surrounding sounds. (As in many if not most non-Western musical traditions.)

Absolutely, which does illustrate one of the drawbacks of a solely "note based" (as opposed to sound based) music education system (as Leigh would say )

When I studied the Sitar it rapidly became obvious that the music wasn't a series of "embellished" melodies even though the method of learning what we would term "ornaments" was very systematic and rigorous (much more so than anything I ever did for the ABRSM).

[Richard Barrett]

(as Leigh would say )

Can I just say that if I weren't Leigh, which of course I am, I could have come up with that formulation without his help!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But weren't ornaments also a means of sustaining sound/a sound on perhaps not very resonant instruments?

PS: second thoughts! Probably only the trill falls into that category.

It's difficult to be absolutely sure (because we don't have sound recordings) but don't (/didn't) singers use what we now call ornaments ("grace notes", pitch bends etc)? It might be that more recent singers have picked up ideas from hearing other practitioners, such as lutenists - or that publishers had to invent symbols to represent expressive adjustments to notes that performers of all sorts were accustomed to incorporating into performance.

[Pulcinella]

It's difficult to be absolutely sure (because we don't have sound recordings) but don't (/didn't) singers use what we now call ornaments ("grace notes", pitch bends etc)? It might be that more recent singers have picked up ideas from hearing other practitioners, such as lutenists - or that publishers had to invent symbols to represent expressive adjustments to notes that performers of all sorts were accustomed to incorporating into performance.

And in that case, were they reallly ornaments (ornamentation) as used, say, in the repeat of the A part in a ternary (ABA) aria in an oratorio, the 'embellishment' thereby causing some variety from the original?

[Richard Barrett]

One important early account of ornamentation was written by a singer/composer - Giulio Caccini, in the introduction to his collection Le nuove musiche of 1602. Here's an excerpt:

In both madrigals and arias [all in monodic style] I have always tried to imitate the ideas of the words, seeking more or less expressive notes to follow the sentiments of the words. I concealed the art of counterpoint as much as I could, to make the words as graceful as possible. I placed consonant chords on long syllables and moved quickly through short ones. I observed the same rules in making [ornamental] passagework. Even so, to achieve a measure of ornamentation, now and then I made use of eighth notes up to the value of a quarter beat or a half beat at most, and mainly on short syllables. These are permissible because they pass quickly. They are [therefore] not passagework, but rather an addition to make the music more graceful. Besides, special considerations require that every rule suffer exceptions. But since previously I said that those long runs in the voice are badly used, I should give warning that passagework is not executed because it is necessary for a proper manner of singing. Rather, I believe that passagework brings a certain titillation to the ears of those who do not really understand what it means to sing with expression. For, if they knew, they would undoubtedly detest such passagework since nothing could be further from expression. That is why I say these lengthy runs in the voice are badly used. Nevertheless, I have allowed some passagework in the service of less expressive music. I have used it in such music over long, not short, syllables and in final cadences. For these long runs, there are no other considerations for vowels, except that u sounds better in the soprano than the tenor, and the i better than u in the tenor. The function of the remaining vowels follows their common use: that is, the open vowels are more sonorous than the closed, and they are easier for vocal exercises. . . .

It remains for me to say why such vocal effects as crescendos, diminuendos, exclamations, trills, little groupings, and other previously described effects are [so often] used indiscriminately. It is indeed indiscriminate when a person applies such effects as much in expressive music, which they enrich, as in canzonettas for dancing.

[Dave2002]

I think you found that one in "The Musicians' Joke Book".

'Fraid not. When I wer a lad we 'ad a budgie, which we called Peter, and that was some of the stuff we fed him on. Actually I'm not sure that we were ever sure that "he" was a he, not being experts on that kind of thing.

Somewhile later I did become aware of trills in the musical sense, from playing various wind instruments.

If you want to add that to a joke book, feel free.

[Serial_Apologist]

A question I have often asked myself is, is there a continuum between trill and vibrato? Both seem to consist in a semitonal quiver. And where - to further complicate matters, I'm afraid - does tremolando come into all this?

Somebody can put me right on this, but there seem to be two types of vibrato, dependant on the instrument (or voice) deploying them: one being the abovementioned sermitonal quiver; another a sort of rapid on-off pulsation applied to a single pitch - and I dare say there are others too.

[mercia]

wikipedia says

The word trillo is sometimes used to mean the same as trill. However, in early music some refer to a related ornament specifically called trillo:

Trillo is the least familiar of the vocal maneuvers, and, in present day usage, is performed either on a single note or as a technique for executing rapid scale-like passages. Perceptually, it is heard as a rhythmic interruption, or near interruption, of phonation that typically begins slowly with individual pulses separated by a short silent period and then often increases in rate to something resembling a vocal imitation of machine gun firing, albeit without the accompanying cacophony

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trill_(music)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stile_concitato

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A question I have often asked myself is, is there a continuum between trill and vibrato? Both seem to consist in a semitonal quiver. And where - to further complicate matters, I'm afraid - does tremolando come into all this?

Somebody can put me right on this, but there seem to be two types of vibrato, dependant on the instrument (or voice) deploying them: one being the abovementioned sermitonal quiver; the other a sort of rapid oscillation that is confined to one pitch.

Vibrato, in general, should be a variation in intensity, rather than pitch. Unfortunately, many singers err towards the latter.

[Serial_Apologist]

wikipedia says

The word trillo is sometimes used to mean the same as trill. However, in early music some refer to a related ornament specifically called trillo:

Trillo is the least familiar of the vocal maneuvers, and, in present day usage, is performed either on a single note or as a technique for executing rapid scale-like passages. Perceptually, it is heard as a rhythmic interruption, or near interruption, of phonation that typically begins slowly with individual pulses separated by a short silent period and then often increases in rate to something resembling a vocal imitation of machine gun firing, albeit without the accompanying cacophony

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stile_concitato

Thanks for this, mercia. Trillo, of which I had not heard before, would seem to conform to my idea of vibrato as applied to a single pitch.

BTW I've amended the last line of my #607.

[MrGongGong]

Vibrato, in general, should be a variation in intensity, rather than pitch. Unfortunately, many singers err towards the latter.

Erm

Theres a big difference between amplitude and frequency modulation
String vibrato (for example) IS frequency modulation and therefore IS a variation in pitch
Of course, some folks take this to extreme

On second thoughts, where did you get that idea?
Vibrato IS a variation in frequency so will be a pitch modulation

[mercia]

that particular single-note vocal ornamentation used in Monteverdi (and others?) I wouldn't call vibrato at all - its a bit of a definition minefield isn't it [replying to SA]

[Serial_Apologist]

Erm

Theres a big difference between amplitude and frequency modulation
String vibrato (for example) IS frequency modulation and therefore IS a variation in pitch
Of course, some folks take this to extreme

I have heard the very rapid actions of the body of string players at the start of Boulez's Metaesquisses described as vibrato; would this be inaccurate?

[MrGongGong]

I have heard the very rapid actions of the body of string players at the start of Boulez's Metaesquisses described as vibrato; would this be inaccurate?

Don't know, will ask someone who does.

I think that we are rather imprecise and crude in our way of talking about (and notating) these things.
This piece for example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo46Vnlr13Y&spfreload=10

has very precise notations for speed and width of the vibrato used (as does Shakuhachi notation)

[mercia]

"upper" ....... mordents.

'Schneller' ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baroque_Trill_Instructions.png