Musical questions and answers thread

[EdgeleyRob]

I have been listening to a lot of Schubert today.
Got me thinking and wondering why the Piano Sonata No. 17 in D major (D.850) doesn't seem to get a mention when we talk about the great Schubert piano works.
I adore this piece.
It's big,around 40 minutes,almost symphonic in scale,which figures as it was written around the same time as the Great C Major Symphony.
The 2nd movement the most beautiful thing he ever wrote IMO,I never want this part to end.
Listened to Kempff,Gilels,Lewis and Brendel this evening.
Anyone else feel that D850 deserves the same acclaim as the last three Sonatas ?
Sorry,what started out as a question has turned into a ramble.

[aeolium]

It's a lovely work, ER, and I admire all those later sonatas of Schubert from the A minor (D845) on - for some reason, I'm not so keen on the earlier A minor sonata D784. I first heard D850 in a recording by Clifford Curzon, though later came to like the Vladimir Ashkenazy recording very much. IIRC Curzon does not play the first movement exposition repeat, which is a pity as it rather unbalances the work (that movement is as a result half as long as the slow movement). I agree about the slow movement, the longest of all of his sonata slow movements but one that shouldn't drag. Ingrid Haebler has a beautiful piano tone but imv takes the first movement too slowly - not much vivace about it. But I have not heard many recordings of this work and it's surprising that it is relatively rarely played in concerts or broadcast on R3, especially compared with any of the last 3 sonatas.

[EdgeleyRob]

Thanks aeolium.

I think the question I intended to ask,before my post became a D850 love in,was which is the first truly great sonata ?
I suppose it must be either D784 or 845.
Or are they all great works ?
I'm glad there is at least one other D850 fan on here.

[Roehre]

ER,

All composed in 1825 D850 "Gasteiner"(=opus 53) is together with D845(=opus 42) and D894 (=opus 78) a group of sonatas which by Schubert himself for the first time in his composing career were considered to be one cycle (like he considered the last three sonatas as one group/cycle too). There is one catch however: 845 was the première grande sonate, 850 the seconde grande sonate and 894 the IV.grosse Sonate. Which considered Schubert to be grand sonate no.3 then? Not the unfinished "reliquie" D.840, but surprisingly D.568 (= opus 147), composed in 1817 .

D850 is generally considered to be the most important and -because of its slow mvt- the "best" of these. Quite popular upto the 1950s too, there even exists an orchestration by Künneke uit 1944. But then the increasing popularity of D958-960 eclipsed basically all the other sonatas, including D850. This Gasteiner was for a short time also considered as a piano reduction of a "lost" symphony of that name, an "honour" which it shared with the Grand Duo in C op.140 D812 from 1824 (orchestrated by Joachim i.a.).

At the present the last sonatas are more played in concerts and recorded than any of the others. Just a question of fashion, I'm afraid, not of quality. It would be a nice programme e.g. to combine Beethoven's Waldstein (in C op.53) with Schubert's Gastein (in D op.53) - especially as Beethoven's sonata is defined by the fast movements, the Schubert by its slow one.

[french frank]

I'm glad there is at least one other D850 fan on here.

I did make a point of playing it (3 times!) last night. And thanks to Roehre for all the information.

[EdgeleyRob]

ER,

All composed in 1825 D850 "Gasteiner"(=opus 53) is together with D845(=opus 42) and D894 (=opus 78) a group of sonatas which by Schubert himself for the first time in his composing career were considered to be one cycle (like he considered the last three sonatas as one group/cycle too). There is one catch however: 845 was the première grande sonate, 850 the seconde grande sonate and 894 the IV.grosse Sonate. Which considered Schubert to be grand sonate no.3 then? Not the unfinished "reliquie" D.840, but surprisingly D.568 (= opus 147), composed in 1817 .

D850 is generally considered to be the most important and -because of its slow mvt- the "best" of these. Quite popular upto the 1950s too, there even exists an orchestration by Künneke uit 1944. But then the increasing popularity of D958-960 eclipsed basically all the other sonatas, including D850. This Gasteiner was for a short time also considered as a piano reduction of a "lost" symphony of that name, an "honour" which it shared with the Grand Duo in C op.140 D812 from 1824 (orchestrated by Joachim i.a.).

At the present the last sonatas are more played in concerts and recorded than any of the others. Just a question of fashion, I'm afraid, not of quality. It would be a nice programme e.g. to combine Beethoven's Waldstein (in C op.53) with Schubert's Gastein (in D op.53) - especially as Beethoven's sonata is defined by the fast movements, the Schubert by its slow one.

Roehre,many thanks for this

[EdgeleyRob]

I did make a point of playing it (3 times!) last night. And thanks to Roehre for all the information.

Once is never enough with this sonata ff.

[EdgeleyRob]

Well that was your starter for ten.

Next question,why did Schubert never write a concerto.
Obviously there's no right answer but I'd be interested to know the thoughts of forumites.

There are a few concert or concertante pieces but no full blown concerto.
Schubert was apparently no virtuoso pianist but there are some quite demanding moments in the piano works,the violin sonatas and other pieces.

I couldn't imagine a big flashy Schubert piano concerto but maybe something along the lines of LvB 4.

Sorry for hogging the thread

[Roehre]

Next question,why did Schubert never write a concerto.
Obviously there's no right answer but I'd be interested to know the thoughts of forumites.

There are a few concert or concertante pieces but no full blown concerto.
Schubert was apparently no virtuoso pianist but there are some quite demanding moments in the piano works,the violin sonatas and other pieces.

I couldn't imagine a big flashy Schubert piano concerto but maybe something along the lines of LvB 4.

He didn't write a full concerto, nor a concertante work for piano and orchestra.
The general explanation is that he didn't feel he was up-to-the-job to perform a piano concerto himself (e.g. he was not up to playing the Wanderer fantasy himself adequately) and hence did not write one for himself (as Mozart, Beethoven, and the virtuosi of those days did), and on top of that also was to shy to ask a capable pianist. But he did compose some works for violin and orchestra: Konzertstück D345 (1816), Rondo D438 (1817) and Polonaise D580 (1818), altogether some 30 minutes of concertante music. They have all been recorded by Kremer in the 1970s and 1990s, both on DGG.

Beethoven op.58 was too big a beast for Schubert, and contrary to its relative relaxed atmosphere is still a demanding work for a pianist.

[EdgeleyRob]

He didn't write a full concerto, nor a concertante work for piano and orchestra.
The general explanation is that he didn't feel he was up-to-the-job to perform a piano concerto himself (e.g. he was not up to playing the Wanderer fantasy himself adequately) and hence did not write one for himself (as Mozart, Beethoven, and the virtuosi of those days did), and on top of that also was to shy to ask a capable pianist. But he did compose some works for violin and orchestra: Konzertstück D345 (1816), Rondo D438 (1817) and Polonaise D580 (1818), altogether some 30 minutes of concertante music. They have all been recorded by Kremer in the 1970s and 1990s, both on DGG.

Beethoven op.58 was too big a beast for Schubert, and contrary to its relative relaxed atmosphere is still a demanding work for a pianist.

Yet another I owe you Roehre.

[Flay]

(e.g. he was not up to playing the Wanderer fantasy himself adequately)

I struggle to understand how any human can play (often from memory) such music. It's just too complex!

[mercia]

when a "false relation" occurs (you know what I mean) was it composed like that for emotional effect, or does it just happen by accident because the two contrapuntal parts are following their own inexorably logical paths ?

[MrGongGong]

when a "false relation" occurs (you know what I mean) was it composed like that for emotional effect, or does it just happen by accident because the two contrapuntal parts are following their own inexorably logical paths ?

Why don't "false relations" ever send you Birthday Cards?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

when a "false relation" occurs (you know what I mean) was it composed like that for emotional effect, or does it just happen by accident because the two contrapuntal parts are following their own inexorably logical paths ?

Depends on the composer - where they work most successfully, the composer already has the sound in his/her "harmonic vocabulary" - along with diminished seventh chords, augmented sixths etc etc etc - and uses it where it has best effect: good part-writing means that there aren't any "accidents" or mere coincidences.

If it is entirely an "accident", "false relations" are more accurately described as "imaginary friends".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well that was your starter for ten.

Next question,why did Schubert never write a concerto.
Obviously there's no right answer but I'd be interested to know the thoughts of forumites.

There are a few concert or concertante pieces but no full blown concerto.
Schubert was apparently no virtuoso pianist but there are some quite demanding moments in the piano works,the violin sonatas and other pieces.

I couldn't imagine a big flashy Schubert piano concerto but maybe something along the lines of LvB 4.

Sorry for hogging the thread

I play a disproportionately high amount of Schubert's piano music, because I have an on-going left hand thumb weakness. Schubert's piano music is very much right hand dominant, so it suits me.

A pity, because I really would like to do that Sparky's Magic Piano recital (which includes the dreaded Revolutionary Study).