Musical questions and answers thread

[EdgeleyRob]

There's no reason why you have to understand this, after all. Just appreciate that these were less complicated (but rather distinctive) scales than we are now used to, that they feature in ancient church music and folk music, and that many composers adopted (and adapted) them to their own use - Bartok and RVW to name just two.

I know that these modes are the basis of some of the music that is most important to me.
I was trying to get an understanding of the theory behind them.
Your answers have been very helpful,thank you for that Pabs.

[Pabmusic]

I know that these modes are the basis of some of the music that is most important to me.
I was trying to get an understanding of the theory behind them.
Your answers have been very helpful,thank you for that Pabs.

Bear in mind, though, that composers such as RVW or Bartok used modal melodies and harmonies as a starting point only, transforming them by their magic into their own languages. I suspect they felt the modes simply expanded their palette.

Just consider the two I've spent time on, Aeolian and Dorian. By treating these as full members of the pantheon together with the melodic and harmonic minor scales, any scale on - say - C might justifiably include A, B and C (Ionian, major, melodic minor, or harmonic minor ascending); A, B-flat and C (Dorian); A-flat, B-flat and C (Aeolian); or Ab, B-natural and C (harmonic minor descending but played in reverse). Indeed it might have either an E or E-flat as well. That's quite a choice.

Add to this the harmonic advantages - EA points out in 523 above that you can harmonise Drunken Sailor effectively with two chords, Dm and C. Yes you can, but it's profoundly un-classical since C is foreign to D minor. Also, the Dm-C shift demands that parallel 5ths and parallel triads be acceptable. And where would RVW be without them?

I could go on, but it is remarkable just how much that is central to RVW's or Bartok's (or any of dozens of composers') styles flows naturally from using features taken from the modes.

[Serial_Apologist]

I could go on, but it is remarkable just how much that is central to RVW's or Bartok's (or any of dozens of composers') styles flows naturally from using features taken from the modes.

And jazz too, iimss, since George Russell adumbrated his Lydian Chromatic Theory in the 1950s, and particularly since Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" of 1959.

[MrGongGong]

Also, the Dm-C shift demands that parallel 5ths and parallel triads be acceptable. .

They are more than acceptable IMV

Patrick Gowers used to have a great collection of Bach extracts that broke all the 'rules'

[EdgeleyRob]

Bear in mind, though, that composers such as RVW or Bartok used modal melodies and harmonies as a starting point only, transforming them by their magic into their own languages. I suspect they felt the modes simply expanded their palette.

Just consider the two I've spent time on, Aeolian and Dorian. By treating these as full members of the pantheon together with the melodic and harmonic minor scales, any scale on - say - C might justifiably include A, B and C (Ionian, major, melodic minor, or harmonic minor ascending); A, B-flat and C (Dorian); A-flat, B-flat and C (Aeolian); or Ab, B-natural and C (harmonic minor descending but played in reverse). Indeed it might have either an E or E-flat as well. That's quite a choice.

Add to this the harmonic advantages - EA points out in 523 above that you can harmonise Drunken Sailor effectively with two chords, Dm and C. Yes you can, but it's profoundly un-classical since C is foreign to D minor. Also, the Dm-C shift demands that parallel 5ths and parallel triads be acceptable. And where would RVW be without them?

I could go on, but it is remarkable just how much that is central to RVW's or Bartok's (or any of dozens of composers') styles flows naturally from using features taken from the modes.

Brilliant,penny on the verge of dropping here !

[Pabmusic]

They are more than acceptable IMV

Patrick Gowers used to have a great collection of Bach extracts that broke all the 'rules'

Yes. 'Rules' are descriptive not prescriptive of course, but not all musicians have understood that. It's when you are in the presence of genius (JSB for instance) that 'rules' become rather meaningless, don't you think?

[Alison]

New question: Are Beethoven's melodies for the most part original or did he do any borrowing from folk song etc?

[Petrushka]

New question: Are Beethoven's melodies for the most part original or did he do any borrowing from folk song etc?

I'm sure Roehre will give the detail (look forward to it) but recall JEG providing some proof that Beethoven borrowed from French Revolutionary songs in the 5th and 9th Symphonies.

[Alison]

Cheers Pet, it's not something I've thought about much until recently. What about the main theme of Symphony 6, last movement?

[EdgeleyRob]

I feel a classic Roehre reply coming,can't wait.

[jean]

Sorry to go backwards - but I missed the fascinating discussion on modes while it was happening and have only just discovered it.

At the moment I am singing - or trying to sing - the wonderful Lassus sacred madrigals Lagrime di San Pietro. I am told that they are structured on a modal system. Wiki explains it thus:

The Lagrime sets 20 poems by the Italian poet Luigi Tansillo (1510–1568) depicting the stages of grief experienced by St. Peter after his denial of Christ, and his memory of Christ's admonition (Matthew 26:69–75). The settings by Lassus are for seven voices, and numerical symbolism plays a part throughout: the seven voices represent the seven sorrows of the Virgin Mary; in addition many of the madrigals are in seven sections. The total number of pieces in the set, 21, represents seven times the number of members of the trinity.

In addition, Lassus only sets seven of the eight church modes (modes I through VII), leaving mode VIII entirely out. The madrigals are grouped by successive mode, with madrigals 1 through 4 in mode I, 5 to 8 in mode II, 9 to 12 in modes III and IV, 13 to 15 in mode V, 16 to 18 in mode VI, 19 and 20 in mode VII, and the closing motet based on the tonus peregrinus, entirely outside the Renaissance scheme of the eight church modes. According to David Crook, writing in his 1994 book on the Lassus Magnificat settings:

Mode eight's conspicuous absence and thereby the incomplete representation of the eight-member system in the first twenty madrigals mirror the words of Saint Peter and symbolize all that is imperfect in the world just as surely as the adoption of another tone outside the system for the words of Christ in the Latin envoi serves as a symbol for the other world to come.

.

[Roehre]

Beethoven and folksong(-quotes) is a complicated story.

Obviously there are the Welsh, Scottish and Irish folksong arrangements (op.108, WoO 153-157 plus Hess 152-207), for which Thompson in Edinburgh provided the melodies (NOT the words!!!) and for which Beethoven (and Haydn and Kozeluch and Pleyel i.a.) prepared intros (and sometimes interludes and postludes ) and arrangements with piano trio accompaniment (and in the process also creating sets of variations on folksongs for flute [or violin] and piano opp.105 and 107)

There are however other groups of Folksong arrangements which are not or partly based on Thomson’s melodies, WoO 158/1, 158/2 and 158/3, the so-called Songs from diverse Nations, consisting of tunes of Russian, Tyrolean, Spanish, Venetian, German, Polish, English [John Gay’s Beggar’s opera !], French, Hungarian, Swedish and unknown provenance.

These WoO 158 groups are therefore the proof that Beethoven knew in one way or another quite a lot of folksongs. It’s likely that the best part was presented to him in some way, but we have to keep in mind that notation of folksongs (as RVW and Holst did in England) was something which really only took off in the fourth quarter of the 19th century.

So: Beethoven knew folksongs.
But: did he use them?

There are some examples (apart from the Thomsons arrangements) where he did.
An early example are citations in the Ritterballett WoO 1 from 1790, the Trinklied as well as the Deutscher Gesang.
Then of course we have got the 3 String quartets opus 59 the Rasumovsky or Russian Quartets.
And here the problems start: though in op.59/1 and /2 the Russian melodies (later used by Mussorgski in Boris Godunov[coronation scene] too e.g.) are known and identified, that is not the case in op.59/3. Nevertheless the work seems to contain Russian melodies. Nice to discover that at least one of those is developed nearly bar by bar by Beethoven, according to his sketches .
So: Beethoven was able to create what we might call pastiches, melodies very much resembling an original folk tune or folk song (like Schubert: Heideröslein or Brahms: Lullaby).

Hence it is important to have a look at the sketches for the supposed quotations in the fifth and sixth symphonies. The latter’s finale, Hirtengesang (shephards’ singing), which sounds like a folk song, was sketched from scratch.
Of course it might resemble one of the melodies Beethoven recalled from his youth, or even being a conscious or subconscious quote.

Therefore it is also important to see how Beethoven struggled in his 5th symphony to create the transition from the demonic scherzo to the finale, where the trombones make their first appearance. Exactly where they do, a well known childrens’ folksong appears “A B C die Katze lief im Schnee” (A B C, the cat walked in the snow). But, again, this theme was created from scratch. And again Beethoven is likely to have quoted this consciously or subconsciously.

With this in mind that subconscious level can definitely not be ruled out. An example of this: One of the folksongs mentioned earlier, a melody which appears in the Ritterballett (1790), reappears in the finale of the Piano sonata in G opus 79 (1809). Self quotation? No. Sketched from scratch! But subconsciously he must have known that melody.

I am not aware of folksong influences on the Ninth, but the Seventh (1812) is another story.
It is assumed that the main melody of the 2nd mvt as well as of the trios of the Scherzo are derived (or perhaps even actually quoting) from a Bohemian pilgrims’ tune.
The finale has not escaped the influence of one of the Thomson melodies which were sent to Beethoven in 1809.
Only listen to the Irish folksong Save me from the grave and wise WoO 154/8 and discover how strongly this has influenced the Seventh’s finale.

Thus: Beethoven knew melodies from his youth and used them, got to know them later (through Count Rasumovsky e.g.) and used them, and was presented with some 200 of them by Thomson and used and was influenced by them.
Most melodies in his output which seem to be folk tunes were composed from scratch however.
But at a subconscious level it is highly likely that Beethoven incorporated them in his works.

[The influence of French revolutionary music on Beethoven is another chapter, it is suggested that without it Beethoven's "Heroic" style from 1803-1814 would have been very, very different indeed]

[Beef Oven!]

Beethoven and folksong(-quotes) is a complicated story.

Obviously there are the Welsh, Scottish and Irish folksong arrangements (op.108, WoO 153-157 plus Hess 152-207), for which Thompson in Edinburgh provided the melodies (NOT the words!!!) and for which Beethoven (and Haydn and Kozeluch and Pleyel i.a.) prepared intros (and sometimes interludes and postludes ) and arrangements with piano trio accompaniment (and in the process also creating sets of variations on folksongs for flute [or violin] and piano opp.105 and 107)

There is however another group of Folksong arrangements which are not or partly based on Thomson’s melodies, WoO 158/1,. 158/2 and 158/3, the so-called Songs from diverse Nations, consisting of Russian, Tyrolean, Spanish, Venetian, German, Polish, English [John Gay’s Beggr’s opera !], French, Hungarian, Swedish and unknown provenance.

This WoO 158 group is therefore the proove that Beethoven knew in one way or another quite a lot of folksongs. It’s likely that the best part was presented to him in some way, but we have to keep in mind that notation of folksongs (as RVW and Holst did in England) was something which really only took off in the fourth quarter of the 19th century.

So: Beethoven knew folksongs.
But: did he use them?

There are some examples (apart from the Thomsons arrangements) that he did.
An early example are citations in the Ritterballett WoO 1 from 1790, the Trinklied as well as the Deutscher Gesang.
Then of course we have got the 3 String quartets opus 59 the Rasumovsky or Russian Quartets.
And here the problems start: though in op.59/1 and /2 the Russian melodies (later used by Borodin in Prince Igor [coronation scene] too e.g.) are known and identified, that is not the case in op.59/3. Nevertheless the work seems to contain Russian melodies. Nice to discover that at least one of those is developed nearly bar by bar by Beethoven, according to his sketches .
So: Beethoven was able to create what we might call pastiches, melodies very much resembling an original folk melody or folk song (like Schubert: Heideröslein or Brahms: Lullaby).

Hence it is important to have a look at the sketches for the fifth and sixth symphonies. The latter’s finale, Hirtengesang (shephards’ singing), which sounds like a folk song, was sketched from scratch.
Of course it might resemble one of the melodies Beethoven recalled from his youth, or even being a conscious or subconscious quote.

Therefore it is important to see how Beethoven struggled to create the transition from the demonic scherzo in his 5th to the finale, where the trombones make their appearance. Exactly where they do, an actual childrens’ folksong appears “A B C die Katze lief im Schnee” (A B C, the cat walked in the snow).
Again, this theme was created from scratch. But again Beethoven might consciously or subconsciously have quoted this .

That subconscious level can definitely not be ruled out.
One of the folksongs mentioned earlier, a melody which appears in the Ritterballett (1790), reappears in the finale of the Piano sonata in G opus 79 (1809).
Self quotation? No. Sketched from scratch! But subconsciously he must have known that melody.

I am not aware of folksong influences on the Ninth, but the Seventh (1812) is another story.
It is assumed that the main melody of the 2nd mvt as well as the trios of the Scherzo are derived (or perhaps even actually quoting) a Bohemian pilgrims’ tune. The finale however has not escaped the influence of one of the Thomson melodies sent to Beethoven in 1809.
Only listen to the Irish folksong Save me from the grave and wise WoO 154/8 and discover how strongly this has influenced the Seventh’s finale.

So: Beethoven knew melodies from his youth, got to know them later (through Count Rasumovsky e.g.), and was presented with some 200 of them by Thomson.
Most melodies in his output which seem to be folk melodies were composed from scratch.
But at a subconscious level it is highly likely that Beethoven incorporated them in his works.

[The influence of French revolutionary music on Beethoven is another chapter, it is suggested that without it Beethoven's "Heroic" style from the 1803-1814 would have been very, very different indeed]

so interesting, many thanks Roehre.

The Ottoman siege of Vienna would have brought people within earshot of other melodies and tunes too, not just martial drumming.

[jean]

The thing that still puzzles me is: how did they manage to invent the modes before they had keyboards without the distribution of black and white keys that we know?

Or perhaps Why, having invented the modes, but then largely lost interest, did they arrange the black and white keys on the keyboard in such a way that they could play any mode without using any black keys at all?

[EdgeleyRob]

Roehre,post 537 is fascinating,thanks for taking the time.