Musical questions and answers thread

[EdgeleyRob]

The thing that still puzzles me is: how did they manage to invent the modes before they had keyboards without the distribution of black and white keys that we know?

Pass.

[Pabmusic]

The thing that still puzzles me is: how did they manage to invent the modes before they had keyboards without the distribution of black and white keys that we know?

Well, all you'd need would be a lyre (or similar) with a fixed set of strings tuned to seven tones. That's quite easy to get. Begin with a pentatonic scale of the type that's very common indeed all over the world (tones 1,2,3, 5, 6) and it probably won't take too long to add (A) a 4th tone that's just a little above the 3rd and which 'pulls' downward to the 3rd, and (B) a 7th tone that's just a little below the octave of note 1 and which 'pulls' upwards to that octave.

You now have a major scale (a natural one). From any such scale (if it's extended by a few more strings) you can obtain all the modes simply by starting on different notes and plucking the fixed strings in order.* Hence the Greek modes - all those lyres.

Incidentally, it's the two notes extra to the pentatonic scale (4 and 7) that provide what we now call semitones (4-3 and 7-1).

*[Edit] Start on note 1 - let's call it a C - and you get the Ionian mode. Start on note 2 and it's the Dorian. Note 3 gives you the Phrygian. 4 gives you the Lydian, 5 the Mixolydian, 6 the Aeolian and 7 the Locrian. No black notes at all. Several of these modes are very commonly encountered in English folk music - as RVW knew well.

The Ionian mode is what we now call a major scale. The Aeolian is a minor scale, though not a 'melodic minor' scale, which is a later development requiring the 6th and 7th notes to be sharpened to F-sharp and G-sharp; the Aeolian has F and G. The Dorian is another minor scale, still with a 'flattened' 7th - C-D - but with the 6th 'sharpened' - B. And so on.]

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, all you'd need would be a lyre (or similar) with a fixed set of strings tuned to seven tones. That's quite easy to get. Begin with a pentatonic scale of the type that's very common indeed all over the world (tones 1,2,3, 5, 6) and it probably won't take too long to add (A) a 4th tone that's just a little above the 3rd and which 'pulls' downward to the 3rd, and (B) a 7th tone that's just a little below the octave of note 1 and which 'pulls' upwards to that octave.

You now have a major scale (a natural one). From any such scale (if it's extended by a few more strings) you can obtain all the modes simply by starting on different notes and plucking the fixed strings in order.* Hence the Greek modes - all those lyres.

Incidentally, it's the two notes extra to the pentatonic scale (4 and 7) that provide what we now call semitones (4-3 and 7-1).

*[Edit] Start on note 1 - let's call it a C - and you get the Ionian mode. Start on note 2 and it's the Dorian. Note 3 gives you the Phrygian. 4 gives you the Lydian, 5 the Mixolydian, 6 the Aeolian and 7 the Locrian. No black notes at all. Several of these modes are very commonly encountered in English folk music - as RVW knew well.

The Ionian mode is what we now call a major scale. The Aeolian is a minor scale, though not a 'melodic minor' scale, which is a later development requiring the 6th and 7th notes to be sharpened to F-sharp and G-sharp; the Aeolian has F and G. The Dorian is another minor scale, still with a 'flattened' 7th - C-D - but with the 6th 'sharpened' - B. And so on.]

I think I get it now. Many thanks for that explanation, Pabs.

[EdgeleyRob]

I think I get it now. Many thanks for that explanation, Pabs.

Yes thanks from me too Pabs.
Still not sinking in here I'm afraid.
Might have to read up again when my brain stops hurting.

[MrGongGong]

Begin with a pentatonic scale of the type that's very common indeed all over the world

a bit OT
But one of the pentatonic scales used extensively in Java and Bali, Slendro approximates (though its NOT standardised at all) as

B C E F G

But to the Balinese note #1 is B even though many folks hear the first note as C (with the fifth on the G emphasising it and used in conjunction etc) which can be used to illustrate that the concept of the semitone as a 'dissonance' is a cultural phenomena rather than something absolute.

as you were

(I was going to look up the thing about Mozart and minor and major semitones )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Examples of dorian mode melodies: Scarborough Fair, What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor, Greensleeves.

[Pabmusic]

a bit OT ...

I've never been OT in my life...

Hyperbolics or just plain b******s, that's me.

[Pabmusic]

Yes thanks from me too Pabs.
Still not sinking in here I'm afraid.
Might have to read up again when my brain stops hurting.

There's no reason why you have to understand this, after all. Just appreciate that these were less complicated (but rather distinctive) scales than we are now used to, that they feature in ancient church music and folk music, and that many composers adopted (and adapted) them to their own use - Bartok and RVW to name just two.

[Pabmusic]

Examples of dorian mode melodies: Scarborough Fair, What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor, Greensleeves.

Yes indeed. Drunken Sailor's a good example:



For the first five bars it could be in either the Dorian or Aeolian. It's in bar 6 that B-natural appears, confirming Dorian. Aeolian would have required a B-flat for the second note. (Obviously, if it were actually Aeolian it must have been transposed up a fourth - if you can used that expression with modes - since the true Aeolian tune would have begun on E and ended on A.)

However, try harmonising the tune according to 'classical' harmony where the piece would be in D minor and you run into problems in bars 3 & 4. Dominant harmony is implied, but the dominant of D minor contains C-sharp, which will not work with C-natural in the melody. In fact, I suspect many would agree that the harmony that sounds best in bars 3 & 4 is centred around C and not A - rather unorthodox in classical harmony.

[Pabmusic]

Here's some folk songs from Holst and Butterworth.

A is from the Second Suite for military band. It's a beautiful Dorian melody collected by Dr George Gardiner in Cornwall. Holst's original key (F minor dorian) makes the D-naturals clear, but I've also written it as if it were truly in the Dorian mode (B) - no sharps or flats.

C and D are interesting. They're variants of the same tune but they're in different modes. Holst's (C - again from the Second Suite and collected by Gardiner in Hampshire) is Aeolian. It's the B-flat that gives it away (asterisked - I didn't provide an 'original' Aeolian version, but this note would be an F, the tune would begin with C and end with A and there'd be no sharps or flats).

Butterworth collected his tune in Sussex (it's from Folk Songs from Sussex) and it's clearly the same tune - it's quite an interesting exercise to examine just why, but the point I want to make is that it's in the Dorian mode, not the Aeolian. It's that D-natural again (asterisk). Butterworth arranged it in C-sharp dorian, but again you can see that the true modal tune has no sharps or flats.

[teamsaint]

Here's some folk songs from Holst and Butterworth.

A is from the Second Suite for military band. It's a beautiful Dorian melody collected by Dr George Gardiner in Cornwall. Holst's original key (F minor dorian) makes the D-naturals clear, but I've also written it as if it were truly in the Dorian mode (B) - no sharps or flats.

C and D are interesting. They're variants of the same tune but they're in different modes. Holst's (C - again from the Second Suite and collected by Gardiner in Hampshire) is Aeolian. It's the B-flat that gives it away (asterisked - I didn't provide an 'original' Aeolian version, but this note would be an F, the tune would begin with C and end with A and there'd be no sharps or flats).

Butterworth collected his tune in Sussex (it's from Folk Songs from Sussex) and it's clearly the same tune - it's quite an interesting exercise to examine just why, but the point I want to make is that it's in the Dorian mode, not the Aeolian. It's that D-natural again (asterisk). Butterworth arranged it in C-sharp dorian, but again you can see that the true modal tune has no sharps or flats.

Thanks for those examples Pabs, really interesting to see the music with the modal basis highlighted.

[Nick Armstrong]

Here's some folk songs from Holst and Butterworth.

....

Wonderful, thanks so much! Can't wait to give them a play on the pianner!

As ERob always says: the Forum that keeps on giving!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes indeed. Drunken Sailor's a good example:

For the first five bars it could be in either the Dorian or Aeolian. It's in bar 6 that B-natural appears, confirming Dorian. Aeolian would have required a B-flat for the second note. (Obviously, if it were actually Aeolian it must have been transposed up a fourth - if you can used that expression with modes - since the true Aeolian tune would have begun on E and ended on A.)

However, try harmonising the tune according to 'classical' harmony where the piece would be in D minor and you run into problems in bars 3 & 4. Dominant harmony is implied, but the dominant of D minor contains C-sharp, whichsical harmony.

The whole melody can comfortably be harmonised with the two chord Dm & C.

Some years ago, I wrote a "Second Fantasia on British Sea Songs", the only melody in common with my illustrious predecessor's being "Jack's the Lad". With the tiniest bit of cheating, I made this tune harmonise with a major key version of the Drunken Sailor. It ripped the Dorian heart out of the latter, but in counterpoint, worked very nicely.

[Pabmusic]

The whole melody can comfortably be harmonised with the two chord Dm & C.

Some years ago, I wrote a "Second Fantasia on British Sea Songs"...

This is mine:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/dm3qk74p197fcg4/The_Leaving_of_Liverpool.aiff

[Pabmusic]

...As ERob always says: the Forum that keeps on giving!

I'd be lost...