Originally posted by Richard Barrett
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Musical questions and answers thread
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clive heath
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Originally posted by Alison View PostNew question: Symphonies of the classical era often start with a slow brooding introduction followed by a joyous allegro: Where and when did this musical idea originate ?
I'm guessing that since Symph's 6-8 were his first written for his new employer, they must have followed current models that were sure to appeal to Prince Esterhazy, but I'd be very interested to know whose these models would have been.
Mozart waited till #36 (Linz) of 1783 for his first symphony with a slow intro...Last edited by LeMartinPecheur; 01-10-14, 22:35.I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!
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Originally posted by Alison View PostNew question: Symphonies of the classical era often start with a slow brooding introduction followed by a joyous allegro: Where and when did this musical idea originate ?
There are hundreds (probably thousands) of examples of 'French' and 'Italian' overtures by Baroque and early Classical composers, and you can see how they both contributed to the rise of the symphony. For instance, from the Italian you get a form (often called 'sinfonia') that can become three separate movements, with a slow movement second. Add the slow first section of the French overture to the Italian sinfonia and you have a slow introduction. Then add in a movement or two from the 'dance suite' - such as a minuet - and you have a four-movement work with a slow introduction.
A grand example of a Baroque dance suite might be Handel's Music for the Royal Fireworks. The overture is in fact a French one, though extended by repeating the fast sections and adding a new slow section in the middle (slow-fast-slow-fast) - rather as if Handel has incorporated ideas from the Italian overture into a French one. It's then followed by dance movements (a bourée, a sicilliano and minuets, and the joyful allegro, La Réjouissance). Drop the bourée and perform in the order Overture, La Paix (sicilliano), Minuets and La Réjouissance and you get something that's not a million miles from an early classical symphony.
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Pabs' #429 gives the answer that I would have offered, but better than I would have put it.
As an aside - it often occurs to my idle moments that the opening five bars of the Shostakovich Fifth Symphony might have originated in a Neo-Classical Suite (possibly for piano: it "lies" under the hands very well) beginning with a French Overture.
I have some very idle moments: I should stay in more.[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
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Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostPabs' #429 gives the answer that I would have offered, but better than I would have put it.
As an aside - it often occurs to my idle moments that the opening five bars of the Shostakovich Fifth Symphony might have originated in a Neo-Classical Suite (possibly for piano: it "lies" under the hands very well) beginning with a French Overture.
I have some very idle moments: I should stay in more.
I see what you mean about Shostakovtch 5 - that had never occurred to me.
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Richard Barrett
Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Postthen again 15/I is adagio-presto-adagio!
Regarding the origins of the French overture style, it was indeed first developed by Lully in the 1650s as an introductory piece for his ballets de cour. But actually French overtures weren't really "slow and brooding" in the way that Haydn and Mozart later took up; plus they almost always ended with a (sometimes truncated) reprise of the slow section, which doesn't tend to happen in Classical-period symphonies. I would think that at least an equal influence on Haydn in his earlier years (for example when the symphonies 6-8 were written) would have come from folk music. Slow-fast pairs of dance movements, for example, are extremely common in the Hungarian folk music he (and his audiences) would have known, as in the verbunkos which was a popular dance form in the late 18th century, and in general the form of "slow introduction followed by more rhythmically-defined music" is a constant feature across many musical cultures.
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Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostA particular admirer of Haydn's "early" symphonies writes: 15/I is as far as I know as close as Haydn ever got to a French overture.
Regarding the origins of the French overture style, it was indeed first developed by Lully in the 1650s as an introductory piece for his ballets de cour. But actually French overtures weren't really "slow and brooding" in the way that Haydn and Mozart later took up; plus they almost always ended with a (sometimes truncated) reprise of the slow section, which doesn't tend to happen in Classical-period symphonies. I would think that at least an equal influence on Haydn in his earlier years (for example when the symphonies 6-8 were written) would have come from folk music. Slow-fast pairs of dance movements, for example, are extremely common in the Hungarian folk music he (and his audiences) would have known, as in the verbunkos which was a popular dance form in the late 18th century, and in general the form of "slow introduction followed by more rhythmically-defined music" is a constant feature across many musical cultures.
I wonder if you could point towards some reading around the subject of connections between Baroque and classical era music, and contemporaneous folk music and forms?Last edited by teamsaint; 02-10-14, 11:18.I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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Richard Barrett
Originally posted by teamsaint View PostI wonder if you could point towards some reading around the subject of connections between Baroque and classical era music, and contemporaneous folk music and forms?
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