Musical questions and answers thread

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sometimes a later editor can add fingerings that go against normal practice, yet are so ingenius that they become the norm. Hans von Bulow's fingerings in the finale of Beethoven's Sonata Appasionata Op. 57 is a good example. The right hand running melody is quite awkward in bar 20. HvB ascends the arpeggio with 1,2,4 and then suddenly moves the hand up the keyboard landing the 3rd finger on the next arpeggio note, ensuring the hand is in the ideal position for what follows.

[EdgeleyRob]

A couple of (maybe silly)questions if I may.

The term 'ten' above a note,I assume indicates tenuto.
This apparently means hold the note for it's full value,but why wouldn't a musician do this anyway ?

The term 'divisi' in orchestral music,how does that actually work ?
So a 3 note chord in the violins,if not marked divisi,would be played as a chord by every player ??

Please excuse the numptiness !

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The term 'ten' above a note,I assume indicates tenuto.
This apparently means hold the note for it's full value,but why wouldn't a musician do this anyway ?

It's often used as a "cautionary" after (or during) a staccato passage - or to ensure that performers don't shorten a particular note in order to take a breath or change bow direction.

The term 'divisi' in orchestral music,how does that actually work ?
So a 3 note chord in the violins,if not marked divisi,would be played as a chord by every player ??

Yes - but then they'd have to "triple stop", which means the bottom note of the chord is played very quickly first and the top two played a microsecond afterwards together. (The opening of RVW's Pastoral Symphony would sound very different if the players weren't divided. If RVW had wanted this, he'd've probably put the cautionary "non divisi" marking in the score. But it would sound very silly!)

[kea]

As ever guys,many thanks for the replies.
So would it be normal for a composer to add fingering and pedal instuctions to piano music,or do they tend to be added later by others.

Beethoven was the first composer to give detailed pedal instructions (there are also two pedal indications in a late Haydn sonata), after which it became more or less normal. "Modern" continuous pedaling started with Chopin (who wrote it out precisely). However some editors will add extra pedal indications to all composers before Chopin, to bring them in line with modern performance practice, which is why it is important to play from urtext editions.

(IMO it is appropriate and correct to play Bach, Mozart, Haydn etc without pedal, and to only use the pedal in Beethoven where he specifically indicated it, which may be not at all in some works. But some people disagree, citing the different conditions of playing in a large hall which would never have occurred in that era)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

To clarify "stopping" - the bridge holding the strings away from the body of the instrument (violin, viola, 'cello double Bass) is arched (which is why it's called a "bridge") - so a player can play only two strings maximum at once. If different fingers are used on these two strings, it's called "double stopping". If a chord of three notes is wanted, the player has to use "triple stopping", and if four notes, "quadruple stopping". Because of the curved bridge, the lower note/two notes are played first and the top two sustained: the chord is "spread" or "arpeggiated" rather than played as a true chord as it would on the piano.

Composers know this - spread, multi-stopped chords are often used as dramatic, loud sounds: they don't really work at quiet dynamics. Divisi passages are as often used in quieter passages (as at the opening of the RVW Pastoral.

[EdgeleyRob]

ferney and kea,many thanks.
Who needs textbooks ?

[Serial_Apologist]

Then presumably "subtracti" is indicated at the end of the Farewell Symphony.

(OK, I'm just going...)

[teamsaint]

Then presumably "subtracti" is indicated at the end of the Farewell Symphony.

(OK, I'm just going...)

..and then everybody goes for a takeaway?

[EdgeleyRob]

[Pabmusic]

A couple of (maybe silly)questions if I may.

The term 'ten' above a note,I assume indicates tenuto.
This apparently means hold the note for it's full value,but why wouldn't a musician do this anyway ?

The term 'divisi' in orchestral music,how does that actually work ?
So a 3 note chord in the violins,if not marked divisi,would be played as a chord by every player ??

Please excuse the numptiness !

Your first question raises an interesting topic: for how long should any note be held? The answer is (near enough) for long enough to allow for articulation, phrasing, bow changes, breathing and other practical considerations. The player's 'neutral' playing needs to have enough spare within it to let a passage become notably more legato or staccato (or any other articulation). Sometimes a little more 'edge' (attack) is needed for each of several notes. And much more. It follows that notes cannot be held very often for their mathematically precise duration - nor should they be. If you have an electronic keyboard (or a music programme such as Sibelius) you can experiment; I suspect you may feel that any playback that has no separation between notes for long stretches sounds very unnatural.

Quite how string players sort out chords depends on them, for the most part. As Ferney says, strings can't play three- or four-note chords without arpeggiating (playing the lower note or even notes slightly before the upper ones). This may not be appropriate to the music, so it is usual for string players to play such chords divisi, usually at the desk - that is, the two players will split it between them. Sometimes the conductor will decide whether a chord should be divided or not (this is the sort of thing that should be done in advance of a rehearsal, so that the librarian can mark up the parts). Sometimes the composer will have made it clear (but that doesn't stop players finding more comfortable ways of achieving the same - composers don't always know how to get what they want).

[Hornspieler]

Your first question raises an interesting topic: for how long should any note be held? The answer is (near enough) for long enough to allow for articulation, phrasing, bow changes, breathing and other practical considerations. The player's 'neutral' playing needs to have enough spare within it to let a passage become notably more legato or staccato (or any other articulation). Sometimes a little more 'edge' (attack) is needed for each of several notes. And much more. It follows that notes cannot be held very often for their mathematically precise duration - nor should they be. If you have an electronic keyboard (or a music programme such as Sibelius) you can experiment; I suspect you may feel that any playback that has no separation between notes for long stretches sounds very unnatural.

Quite how string players sort out chords depends on them, for the most part. As Ferney says, strings can't play three- or four-note chords without arpeggiating (playing the lower note or even notes slightly before the upper ones). This may not be appropriate to the music, so it is usual for string players to play such chords divisi, usually at the desk - that is, the two players will split it between them. Sometimes the conductor will decide whether a chord should be divided or not (this is the sort of thing that should be done in advance of a rehearsal, so that the librarian can mark up the parts). Sometimes the composer will have made it clear (but that doesn't stop players finding more comfortable ways of achieving the same - composers don't always know how to get what they want).

A very helpful answer, Pabs.

May I just add that some composers don't even know what they want!

HS

[teamsaint]

Why do bass players tend to stand to the singers left, in rock/ pop type bands?

There are plenty of answers on the interweb, but I would be interested in folks thoughts.

Logistics? Because the Beatles did?

[Pabmusic]

A very helpful answer, Pabs.

May I just add that some composers don't even know what they want!

HS

Too true...

[ahinton]

To clarify "stopping" - the bridge holding the strings away from the body of the instrument (violin, viola, 'cello double Bass) is arched (which is why it's called a "bridge") - so a player can play only two strings maximum at once. If different fingers are used on these two strings, it's called "double stopping". If a chord of three notes is wanted, the player has to use "triple stopping", and if four notes, "quadruple stopping". Because of the curved bridge, the lower note/two notes are played first and the top two sustained: the chord is "spread" or "arpeggiated" rather than played as a true chord as it would on the piano.

Composers know this - spread, multi-stopped chords are often used as dramatic, loud sounds: they don't really work at quiet dynamics. Divisi passages are as often used in quieter passages (as at the opening of the RVW Pastoral.

All this is true except that it is also theoretically possible to play a triple stopped chord where the outer strings used are open ones and the note played on the string in between them is in a high position, although this is unlikely to be called for.

[Richard Tarleton]

Why do bass players tend to stand to the singers left, in rock/ pop type bands?

There are plenty of answers on the interweb, but I would be interested in folks thoughts.

Logistics? Because the Beatles did?

Not a subject I've researched, but the Beatles' bassist usually stood on the singer's right, IIRC. Being left handed, the neck of PM's guitar stuck out to the right. He had to, in order to sing into the same microphone as John Lennon, without their guitars colliding. It helped give the Beatles their pleasingly symmetrical appearance.