Musical questions and answers thread

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Rolf Hind, Joanna MacGregor, Thomas Larcher. (And, from the previous generation, Ronald Stevenson, Robert Sherlaw Johnson and John McCabe.)

I think I have a reasonably good idea of why performers stopped learning to improvise or compose, but I'm not sure when or why composers stopped being more than just somewhat proficient with an instrument.

Berlioz?

Or, possibly, at the same time as playwrights ceased being actors? (Even fewer actor/writers than pianist/composers? Pinter, Tarentino, Bennett ... ) "Why"? Because long before Babbitt penned "The Composer as Specialist", journalists and concert managers (and, as a result, audiences) had decided that they wanted performers to perform and composers to compose: they couldn't possibly be good at both.

[verismissimo]

Jonathan Powell, Michael Finnissy - both splendid composers and phenomenal ivory ticklers (or "phenomenal composers and splendid ivory ticklers"). George Benjamin's no mean Pianist, either.

And Stephen Hough - which might make one thankful for small mercies.

And Alissa Firsova, who also conducts. Returning with ECO soonish, I hear.

[mercia]

would it be fair (or just obvious) to say that if Liszt (for example) hadn't been able to play his own works, there wasn't anyone else around who could/would have ? i.e. they wouldn't have got a hearing

also I suppose rather obvious to say that had Liszt not played the piano, he wouldn't have composed for it (?)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

also I suppose rather obvious to say that had Liszt not played the piano, he wouldn't have composed for it (?)

Surely that's like saying Berlioz only composed for flute and guitar...

[mercia]

Surely that's like saying Berlioz only composed for flute and guitar...

is it ? I'm not saying that Liszt only composed for the piano [though aren't the majority of his works for piano ??]

weren't his piano compositions to an extent a vehicle for his own playing capabilities ? happy to be corrected

[kea]

Berlioz?

Indeed, but he was among the first virtuoso conductors at least. It seemed to take until the twentieth century for us to have the first generation of composers who only ever went on stage to shake people's hands.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed, but he was among the first virtuoso conductors at least.

That's interesting - in the 20th Century, there seem to have been more Conductor/Composers (or "Composer/Conductors") than composer/instrumentalists.

It seemed to take until the twentieth century for us to have the first generation of composers who only ever went on stage to shake people's hands.

Possibly because of the perception that someone could either be a performer or a composer, never both? A curious perception, given that there are very few composers who cannot (as opposed to "do not") engage well as performers of some sort. (Rebecca Saunders is an interesting - and possibly representative - example. I've never heard her play anything, nor conduct a performance of any of her works. But her involvement in the rehearsal and preparation of her work is fascinating - more akin to a Theatre Director [engaging with the performers both as individuals and as members of an ensemble; sorting out balances, overcoming technical problems, encouraging imaginative approaches to the Music on their stands, winding up the Musical Boxes] than the traditional "maestro" conception of the conductor. The audience only ever see her go onstage to shake hands and bow, but her presence at rehearsals is far more an important part of the performance than might be inferred from such a sight.)

[Serial_Apologist]

is it ? I'm not saying that Liszt only composed for the piano [though aren't the majority of his works for piano ??]

weren't his piano compositions to an extent a vehicle for his own playing capabilities ? happy to be corrected

When I was a child my father informed me that Liszt gave the title "Transcendental Studies" to some of his piano music in order to promote himself as the only person capable of performing them. I've no idea what truth there is in that, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

is it ? I'm not saying that Liszt only composed for the piano [though aren't the majority of his works for piano ??]

weren't his piano compositions to an extent a vehicle for his own playing capabilities ? happy to be corrected

I think both points are correct, merc - but why single out Liszt? The majority of the works of Chopin and Alkan are also for Piano (and they wrote far fewer works without Piano than did Liszt) - and the keyboard Compositions of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninoff, Bartok and Messiaen were all "to an extent a vehicle for [their] own playing capabilities". Composing isn't a lucrative career: performers as a species tend to be better off. If you can play Piano well, you've got the double bonus of getting gigs playing other people's Music and opportunities to present your own stuff to the public without having to rely on other people's good will. (And, if the audience doesn't like your own compositions, they'll still applaud politely, especially if they enjoy the way you've played Chopin before the interval and are looking forward to the Waldstein. Audiences tend not to boo artists who are on a stage alone.)

[Richard Tarleton]

is it ? I'm not saying that Liszt only composed for the piano [though aren't the majority of his works for piano ??]

weren't his piano compositions to an extent a vehicle for his own playing capabilities ? happy to be corrected

Liszt (b. 1811) was a travelling virtuoso until he abruptly ceased playing in public or touring in 1847, aged 37. He went on composing for the piano more or less until his death in 1886, nearly 40 years later. So, only to an extent!

[ahinton]

I think both points are correct, merc - but why single out Liszt? The majority of the works of Chopin and Alkan are also for Piano (and they wrote far fewer works without Piano than did Liszt) - and the keyboard Compositions of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninoff, Bartok and Messiaen were all "to an extent a vehicle for [their] own playing capabilities". Composing isn't a lucrative career: performers as a species tend to be better off. If you can play Piano well, you've got the double bonus of getting gigs playing other people's Music and opportunities to present your own stuff to the public without having to rely on other people's good will. (And, if the audience doesn't like your own compositions, they'll still applaud politely, especially if they enjoy the way you've played Chopin before the interval and are looking forward to the Waldstein. Audiences tend not to boo artists who are on a stage alone.)

Interesting thoughts and very much to the point! Busoni, for example, often had to exercise care as to which of his own works he performed in public, in spite of his being hailed as one of the great pianists of his time; he once ruefully observed (to his friend Bernard van Dieren) that publishers accepted his works because of his fame as a pianist. Godowsky, Medtner and Skryabin were also widely admired as performers, although Medtner tended mostly to perfor Beethoven and his own music, Skryabin Chopin and his own music and Godowsky mainly others' music - but the rôle of the composer/performer is by no means as secure and advantageous as might at first be thought. I'd not go so far as to describe the life of the composer/pianist as something of a poisoned chalice, but I do believe that it's not necessarily all that it's cracked up to be. Liszt played many other composers' works besides his own, as did Alkan later in life when his lowered the bar of his by then well-established reclusivity. You mentioned Stevenson earlier; he's far more widely known as a composer than as a pianist but, having heard him perform on a number of occasions, I can say without fear of challenge that he was one of the finest pianists of his generation (and I use the past tense with great regret and reluctance and only because I happen to know that he is no longer performing or composing, though he is still with us - he'll reach the age of 86 next month).

[Serial_Apologist]

You mentioned Stevenson earlier; he's far more widely known as a composer than as a pianist but, having heard him perform on a number of occasions, I can say without fear of challenge that he was one of the finest pianists of his generation (and I use the past tense with great regret and reluctance and only because I happen to know that he is no longer performing or composing, though he is still with us - he'll reach the age of 86 next month).

Absolutely agree, on the basis of both his astonishing performance of his own Passacaglia on DSCH, broadcast on Radio 3 from abroad iirc, and the utterly memorable series on Busoni he did for Radio 3 way back in the 1970s, in which he elucidated upon and performed Busoni piano music. The latter might have been a COTW.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Absolutely agree, on the basis of both his astonishing performance of his own Passacaglia on DSCH, broadcast on Radio 3 from abroad iirc...

Prompted by boarders' enthusiasm for this work and for S's pianism expressed on an earlier thread, I snapped up a CD copy (his 1st recording IIRC) from Oxfam Online last night

Had to work hard to get it though... On my first visit I picked two other very variegated discs. When I got to checkout I found they were all marked up as unavailable, already in someone's basket. What a bizarre coincidence I thought. When I went back after an hour they were all available, I duly picked them and the same thing happened again. Clearly NOT a coincidence - some strange bug in the website's logic.

Finally got 'em paid for by logging in before I started shopping. (I've shopped there before and have an a/c with password - there's usually some interesting stuff, at slightly more sensible prices than their LP section). Perhaps this tip may save others some time and frustration!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I knew that Stevenson had given up performance, but I'm very sorry to hear he's also "retired" as a composer. I sincerely hope that the birthday celebrations fire up some irresistable new ideas.

[EdgeleyRob]

Harmonics for dummies anyone?

In my attempts at trying to learn how to read music I often come across mention of harmonics..



How do they work then? are they possible on all instruments?

Over to you music teachers.