Musical questions and answers thread

[Petrushka]

Where is he doing this Petrushka? And who is the violin soliist please?

June 5 2014 (my 60th birthday ). Soloist is Isabelle Faust with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe conducted by Bernard Haitink.

http://www.barbican.org.uk/music/event-detail.asp?ID=14467

[amateur51]

June 5 2014 (my 60th birthday ). Soloist is Isabelle Faust with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe conducted by Bernard Haitink.

http://www.barbican.org.uk/music/eve...l.asp?ID=14467

Great stuff Pet - are you planning to go as part of the celebrations?

[EdgeleyRob]

Sorry,me again,more silly questions.

Why are some instruments in different keys ?

Clarinets in A or B flat,Trumpets and Horns in various keys etc,transposing instruments I believe is the term.
If a composer wants a Clarinet in B flat to play a C,he writes B flat,is that correct?
Why couldn't he write C,and then it's the job of the clarinettist to play the note that would sound C ?.

Also Viola music written with a different clef is a bit confusing.



I know I could look all this up on the web,but the superstars of this wonderful forum tend to make it much more interesting.

[mercia]

I shall be very interested in the answer to this question, because on the thread about the pitch of the organ at Peterborough Cathedral being changed, I think I was told that it is disconcerting for a singer to be accompanied by an instrument not playing at A=440, because of the difference between what he sees written and hears. So surely it must be disconcerting for a clarinettist to see and play a "C" but produce and hear a B flat. ????????

[Richard Barrett]

If a composer wants a Clarinet in B flat to play a C,he writes B flat,is that correct?
Why couldn't he write C,and then it's the job of the clarinettist to play the note that would sound C ?

Actually, if the composer wants a clarinet in Bb to play a C, he/she writes a D.

Most clarinettists play both A and Bb instruments. Some also play Eb clarinet, and bass, contrabass, alto, contra-alto and basset horn. And there are others. Yet when a clarinettists sees that D on his/her part, he/she immediately knows the fingering, even if they haven't played that kind of instrument before or don't do so often.

[mangerton]

Sorry,me again,more silly questions.

Why are some instruments in different keys ?

Clarinets in A or B flat,Trumpets and Horns in various keys etc,transposing instruments I believe is the term.
If a composer wants a Clarinet in B flat to play a C,he writes B flat,is that correct?
Why couldn't he write C,and then it's the job of the clarinettist to play the note that would sound C ?.

Also Viola music written with a different clef is a bit confusing.



I know I could look all this up on the web,but the superstars of this wonderful forum tend to make it much more interesting.

I am by no means an expert, and this confused me for many years. The clearest explanation I have ever come across is in a school textbook Score Reading Form and History by Annie O Warburton, pub 1959. (Cost 13/3!!) I purloined this from the former Mrs m many years ago - well, she purloined it from her school, and she knew it all anyway.

I have scanned the relevant part about clarinets and put it here.

You''ll see the answer to your question is actually D, not B flat.

Violas use the C clef I think to avoid excessive use of ledger lines. Bassoon parts are sometimes written in the tenor clef for the same reason.

No doubt some real experts will be along soon, and I'll read their replies with interest. Mercia's question too is interesting. An organist friend with perfect pitch once told me she found it very disconcerting to play a keyboard with a "transpose" feature.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Why are some instruments in different keys ?

Clarinets in A or B flat,Trumpets and Horns in various keys etc,transposing instruments I believe is the term.
If a composer wants a Clarinet in B flat to play a C,he writes B flat,is that correct?
Why couldn't he write C,and then it's the job of the clarinettist to play the note that would sound C ?.

With transposing instruments, the same play can play several similar instruments - particularly useful for brass players who can quickly switch instruments in a band.
Similarly, if you can play one saxophone, you can play them all. They could have done the same wit recorders, but didn't. Instead the players have to adapt to F, C and occasionally G fingerings.
Singers and double bass players transpose too, but as it's up or down an octave, it isn't noticeable.

Also Viola music written with a different clef is a bit confusing.

The alto clef is no different than Wensleydale cheese is different from Cheshire. Thank your lucky stars that the soprano, mezzo-soprano and baritone clefs have fallen out of general use.

[teamsaint]

As another kind of supplementary, I am slightly interested in the perfect pitch business.
Which pitch do they naturally tune to, for instance? also I think I also read somewhere that people have a tendency to lose it over time, but I may have misremembered.

I also wonder if there is a group of people who have no formal musical training, who can demonstrate "perfect pitch" after a little familiarisation. there must be.
As somebody alluded to earlier, it must be a two edged sword.

Also, what proportion of the population have perfect pitch? Even among professional musicians its reasonably rare I think.
I suppose I could google it !!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Alto Clef is the easier question to deal with - if the part were written in Treble Clef, there'd be too many notes needing ledger lines underneath for it to be easily read. If in Bass Clef, too many ledger lines above would result. It could be written with constantly swapping between treble and bass clef, or written as a "Tenor line" (using only treble clef, but sounding an octave lower) but this isn't any easier for the performer than learning Alto clef in the first place (or Tenor clef for Trombonists and 'cellists).


Transposing instruments. With Brass instruments, before the invention of valves, performers would attach different bits of tubing called "crooks" (all the jokes have been done) which had the effect of lenghthening or shortening the amount of tubing of the instrument. Without valves, if you blow a raspberry into a tube with a convenient mouthpiece, you can get a range of different notes - with increasing wind pressure, a note, the note an octave higher, the fifth above that, the fourth above that, the major third above that, the minor third above that ... and then some notes that aren't on the piano and a nosebleed. If the first note you got was a C, then the notes you could most easily get would be C - C - G - C, E - G - Bslightly flat (but not as flat as Bb - but sharper than A) - C - D (-ish) - E - sort-of F - bleeding from the ears.

This would mean you had a "Tube in C".

But supposing the piece is in Bb major - then you need a slightly longer tube, which would then give you, Bb - Bb - F - Bb - D - F - Bb - Aslightlyflat - etc : in other words, a "Tube in Bb".

And this was how Trumpets and Horns were used for centuries, with performers changing crooks between works and movements so that the notes they could play fitted in with the Harmonic procedures as they were enjoyed at the time. With the invention of valves (for Horns) and pistons (for Trumpets) early in the 19th Century, the instruments basically had every crook built into their instruments, so that not only did they not need to keep changing crooks, but that they could play on the one instrument all the notes in the chromatic scale (and thus keep up with the Harmonic developments of the new-fangled composers). For matters of convenience (essentially to avoid the same problems with ledger lines that the Viola - which is in the same sort of register of high and low notes), Horns continued to be written "in F" (so the notes sound a Fifth lower than they're written). They could be written in C, but that would involve constant Clef changing or the players having to change the habits of Centuries and learn Alto clef. This doesn't bother Brass players - they've been doing it practically since their first lesson; they're used to it.

Clarinets are more interesting: the last of the "standard" orchestral woodwind instruments to be developed, they were played originally not by "Clarinetists" as such, but by "Woodwind players" (who were expected to play flute, oboe and bassoon as required: they didn't specialize until the Nineteenth Century). By a fluke of acoustics (Sid Growth's "Nature" proving fickle) the fingers that gave a C on a Flute, Oboe or Bassoon created a Bb from the new instrument - to get C, the fingering either had to be changed, or the instrument shortened. The shorter instruments didn't give the same sound quality as the longer ones, and didn't blend as well as they would have preferred with other woodwind instruments, so performers preferred to keep the sound quality and get used to the fingering they were used to producing a different pitch. (With smaller instruments, it's also more "fiddly" squashing your fingers closer together than on a larger one - a bit like the keypad on mobile phones compared with those on a computer keyboard). With the 19th Century specialization, Clarinetists became as accustomed to this: just like Horn players, this is what they were taught from their very first lessons.

[MrGongGong]

As another kind of supplementary, I am slightly interested in the perfect pitch business.
Which pitch do they naturally tune to, for instance? also I think I also read somewhere that people have a tendency to lose it over time, but I may have misremembered.

I also wonder if there is a group of people who have no formal musical training, who can demonstrate "perfect pitch" after a little familiarisation. there must be.
As somebody alluded to earlier, it must be a two edged sword.

Also, what proportion of the population have perfect pitch? Even among professional musicians its reasonably rare I think.
I suppose I could google it !!

So called "Perfect" pitch is usually a psychological strategy entered into by those with a superiority complex.

We used to have a lecturer with this who claimed that listening to the Balinese Gamelan made his "ears hurt" and he found Indian music obnoxious
The correct technical term for this is "Tosser"

Pitch, Frequency or Note ?

(loads of stuff about this in Slobada et al)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If clefs interest you, identify the tune. You have 15 seconds…

[mercia]

a) - does a viola part ever go high enough to need the use of a treble clef ?

b) - when composers compose for transposing instruments do they write as the player would expect to see their part, or let some copyist or the printer/publisher do that for them ?

[I can hum the tune in #251 but I don't know what it's called]

[Serial_Apologist]

If clefs interest you, identify the tune. You have 15 seconds…

Slow movement, Beethoven 7?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Slow movement, Beethoven 7?

Sorry, no.

(Think folksong.)

[teamsaint]

So called "Perfect" pitch is usually a psychological strategy entered into by those with a superiority complex.

We used to have a lecturer with this who claimed that listening to the Balinese Gamelan made his "ears hurt" and he found Indian music obnoxious
The correct technical term for this is "Tosser"

Pitch, Frequency or Note ?

(loads of stuff about this in Slobada et al)

some things on the radio make my ears hurt. But they aren't usually music.