Musical questions and answers thread

[EdgeleyRob]

Many thanks for all your replies folks,fascinating stuff.

[Richard Barrett]

(?Purely speculative this next bit, but this might be akin to how the brain processes visual information, "translating" two-dimensional line drawings into three-dimensional perspective?)

If you're interested in thickening that particular plot, have a look at this: http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/consemi.html

[LeMartinPecheur]

Possibly following on from the above discussion...

As I understand it, a player with fine pitch-sensitivity and good understanding of harmonic context will be playing the same note slightly differently in different places in a tonal work with clear modulations, depending on the key it's currently in. Does this mean that 12-tone string music demands to be played as it were in equal temperament in order not to suggest inappropriate tonal contexts? Similarly, do highly chromatic passages in late C19/ early C20 music present intonation problems when it becomes debatable which key was last established and where it is currently headed?

If so, when (with which works) did such problems start? And who sorts out the mess - conductor, leader, section principals?

Do players' fine ears for tuning risk getting blunted along the way?

Sorry, lots of Qs. (Too many?)

[Serial_Apologist]

Possibly following on from the above discussion...

As I understand it, a player with fine pitch-sensitivity and good understanding of harmonic context will be playing the same note slightly differently in different places in a tonal work with clear modulations, depending on the key it's currently in. Does this mean that 12-tone string music demands to be played as it were in equal temperament in order not to suggest inappropriate tonal contexts? Similarly, do highly chromatic passages in late C19/ early C20 music present intonation problems when it becomes debatable which key was last established and where it is currently headed?

If so, when (with which works) did such problems start? And who sorts out the mess - conductor, leader, section principals?

Do players' fine ears for tuning risk getting blunted along the way?

Sorry, lots of Qs. (Too many?)

Not at all - really good questions!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Not at all - really good questions!

Ah, then I look forward eagerly to the really good answers!

[amateur51]

Do players' fine ears for tuning risk getting blunted along the way?

In his very readable autobiography Flute, Richard Adeney describes rather movingly how this change became apparent to him as he grew older, such that he decided to give up playing.

[Flay]

I remain vexed about the Satie work.

According to Wiki, John Cage arranged a performance in 1963.

It lasted over 18 hours. One person... was present for the entire performance.
According to the 1971 edition of the Guinness Book of Records: The New York Times critic fell asleep at 4am and the audience dwindled to six. At the conclusion, one of them shouted "Encore!"

[Bryn]

I've attended several performances, indeed recording one of them at the Almeida Festival 1983, or 1984). I also superimposed 840 performances of a single cycle to produce 'A Vexed Question', which was included in an early Radio 3 'web postcard' interview item where I was interviews by Doc. Walker.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As I understand it, a player with fine pitch-sensitivity and good understanding of harmonic context will be playing the same note slightly differently in different places in a tonal work with clear modulations, depending on the key it's currently in.

- this is how I understand it, too.

Does this mean that 12-tone string music demands to be played as it were in equal temperament in order not to suggest inappropriate tonal contexts?

This is a really good question, and one that I've wondered about for some time. Many years ago, I copied out the score of Schoenberg's Fourth String Quartet (I couldn't afford to buy it) and did wonder about the frequent appearances of note cells such as F natural - G# - F# - Cnatural: did the composer (who was a string player and couldn't play the piano profficiently - and whose cultural background was that of Brahms and based in Tonality) really want G# - F#, or did he mean Ab - Gb (the Ab sounding slightly lower in pitch after the F natural than the written G# etc). At the time, I made "enharmonic" adjustments in my copy, which I now regret as I've become sure that Arnie actually knew what he was doing.

With Babbitt and Wuorrinen (who thought in terms of equal tempered semitones, rather than in the Tonality-based intervals - in other words, "3 7 6" rather than "minor third [or augmented second] "perfect fifth" "diminished fifth" [or augmented fourth or tritone]) it may be different - that this is Music in which every G# and Ab (for example) are the same pitch. But I'm sure I hear the old differences when I hear the performances of Babbitt that really "do it" for me - or do I just convince myself?

Similarly, do highly chromatic passages in late C19/ early C20 music present intonation problems when it becomes debatable which key was last established and where it is currently headed?

If so, when (with which works) did such problems start? And who sorts out the mess - conductor, leader, section principals?

Do players' fine ears for tuning risk getting blunted along the way?

Hans Keller always used to tell gifted string players to avoid orchestral work for precisely that reason. Listening to early recordings of late ninteenth century orchestral works, the intonation can sound sour - probably because the players haven't got the precise intonation subtleties into their "muscle memory" yet: they are playing a piece that they are seeing for perhaps only the second or third time - they see a semiquaver C# and they provide a general all-purpose C# fingering and get onto the next note. Rehearsal and familiarity with the piece will allow them opportunity to (literally) fine-tune such matters. (Remember, too, a Pianist practises a piece - the whole work is on the stand in front of him/her: a Clarinettist is playing from the Clarinet part - there's little chance of getting exactly what they're expected to do at the first run-through of a 50 minute orchestral work from that single part. Early string quartet recordings from the same period tend to sound more "in tune" because the performers have more time to acclimatize themselves to the work's subtleties.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

In his very readable autobiography Flute, Richard Adeney describes rather movingly how this change became apparent to him as he grew older, such that he decided to give up playing.

ams, was Adeney just saying that his sense of pitch went wonky in old age (a not uncommon phenomenon I believe, cf Gabriel Faure for one - the pitches at the extremes of the keyboard got compressed, treble notes flat, bass ones sharp)?

My question was around whether playing a fair bit of highly chromatic and atonal music was likely to blunt tuning sensitivities in 'simple' tonal music. (Whatever that would be...)

[Richard Barrett]

My question was around whether playing a fair bit of highly chromatic and atonal music was likely to blunt tuning sensitivities in 'simple' tonal music.

I don't think that would be the case, since intonation isn't really separate from other issues of stylistic sensitivity when a (good) musician moves between different musics, like (in string playing) tone colour, degrees of vibrato, dynamic range, accentuation, and so on.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Reading over my #219, all those words trying to describe sounds makes it sound very calculated and clinical, which it isn't really - the calculus involved in a footballer "bending it like Beckham" is quite complex and involved, but the players don't consciously make such calculations before kicking. The practice comes first, the Theory merely describes/analyzes it. Musicians don't "think" (or "make conscious decisions") about intonation - they perform Music, adjusting pitch "instinctively" (the inverted commas because it has had to be learnt, but learnt through experience and listening and trial & error).

And it's not just Serial composers who write/think in Equal Temperament: Shostakovich did, too - the famous Second Violin drone in the Eighth String Quartet (whilst the others are doing their "Daa-dee-DADADA DADADA") is written as an F double sharp, but can only be played on the instrument's open G string.

[anamnesis]

My question:

"Muss es sein? (...)."

These words are related to a) composer b) work

[verismissimo]

My question:

"Muss es sein? (...)."

These words are related to a) composer b) work

Yes.

[EdgeleyRob]

Listening to Schubert 9 this morning, (COE,Abbado) got me thinking (dangerous).
What exactly is a chamber orchestra ?
Is it simply down to the number of musicians involved,do they bring in extra troops for the bigger works ?
Is there repertoire that couldn't be programmed by a co ?
Apparently Bruckner is not out of bounds.



This is a cracking thread btw Alison.