Musical questions and answers thread

[vinteuil]

... they ordered these things better in 1555

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archicembalo

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

C flat major is B for god's sake! The next thing will be learning the scale of C double sharp!

Bach wrote 2 Preludes and fugues in C sharp major, rather than D flat. Occasionally the 7 sharp limit is breached in modulating passages. Realistically, there would be problems in notating anything beyond B sharp major, which is 5 double sharps and 2 ordinary ones. No-one has invented a triple sharp as far as I am aware.

[teamsaint]

The whole system was actually devised by tutors of grade 5 music theory, in order to help business.

This is a fact.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The whole system was actually devised by tutors of grade 5 music theory, in order to help business.

This is a fact.

Not really - it's because keyboard instruments needed some form of Equal Temperament tuning so that they could approximate in Tonal Music to what Musical instruments and voices did "naturally" (well, after a couple of decades practice, at any rate). It's easy to forget, after hearing Magicians who can break the rules of Physics such as Kempff, Brendel, Barenboim, Gilels, Pace, Hodges etc etc, that the Piano is just a typewriter with attitude. In Ab minor, Cb is not the same as B natural (and, on real Musical instruments, B natural in G# minor doesn't sound "the same" as B natural in G major, and they both sound slightly different from the B natural in E major or the B natural in C major.

There is nothing "theoretical" about this - very often you can hear a singer singing "out-of-tune", but bash out the written note on the piano and s/he is "in tune" with it, but not with the Tonal acoustic of the melodic line of a piece. It's to attempt to accommodate real Tonal (and "tonal") differences onto the five lines of a staff that double sharps and flats are essential for instrumental and vocal lines. Even on Pianos, a modulation to G# major/minor in a piece in E major needs an F double sharp rather than G natural (as a Leading note) just as much as a modulation to G major/minor needs an F#, not a Gb. And a modulation back needs an F (single)# which would require a natural sign followed by a sharp sign to avoid uncertainty.

[Serial_Apologist]

Not really - it's because keyboard instruments needed some form of Equal Temperament tuning so that they could approximate in Tonal Music to what Musical instruments and voices did "naturally" (well, after a couple of decades practice, at any rate). It's easy to forget, after hearing Magicians who can break the rules of Physics such as Kempff, Brendel, Barenboim, Gilels, Pace, Hodges etc etc, that the Piano is just a typewriter with attitude. In Ab minor, Cb is not the same as B natural (and, on real Musical instruments, B natural in G# minor doesn't sound "the same" as B natural in G major, and they both sound slightly different from the B natural in E major or the B natural in C major.

There is nothing "theoretical" about this - very often you can hear a singer singing "out-of-tune", but bash out the written note on the piano and s/he is "in tune" with it, but not with the Tonal acoustic of the melodic line of a piece. It's to attempt to accommodate real Tonal (and "tonal") differences onto the five lines of a staff that double sharps and flats are essential for instrumental and vocal lines. Even on Pianos, a modulation to G# major/minor in a piece in E major needs an F double sharp rather than G natural (as a Leading note) just as much as a modulation to G major/minor needs an F#, not a Gb. And a modulation back needs an F (single)# which would require a natural sign followed by a sharp sign to avoid uncertainty.

I guess I'll just have to go along with this longstanding practice, even while knowing that a good old natural on the score would make a piece much easier to sightread than a double sharp or flat, without in the final analysis in any way altering its sound.

[Don Petter]

I guess I'll just have to go along with this longstanding practice, even while knowing that a good old natural on the score would make a piece much easier to sightread than a double sharp or flat, without in the final analysis in any way altering its sound.

I think we are being told that it's not where we're going to, but where we're coming from, that is important.

This at least fits in with modern phraseology.

[Richard Barrett]

I guess I'll just have to go along with this longstanding practice, even while knowing that a good old natural on the score would make a piece much easier to sightread than a double sharp or flat, without in the final analysis in any way altering its sound.

But actually, within a tonal context, the double accidentals make things easier to understand in terms of modulations and of the structure of the music. The key of C flat major might be the same as the key of B major when viewed in isolation, but when viewed in the context of a more extended tonal structure, which in practice any key always is, it's understood as a different thing, since musical structures consist not only of sounds but of relationships between sounds. The relationships thus become easier to understand, and indeed probably to sightread, through the use of double accidentals.

[ahinton]

But actually, within a tonal context, the double accidentals make things easier to understand in terms of modulations and of the structure of the music. The key of C flat major might be the same as the key of B major when viewed in isolation, but when viewed in the context of a more extended tonal structure, which in practice any key always is, it's understood as a different thing, since musical structures consist not only of sounds but of relationships between sounds. The relationships thus become easier to understand, and indeed probably to sightread, through the use of double accidentals.

That's right - certainly in most contexts; the only one (at least for me) that remains troublesome is the sheer plethora of double accidentals in some of Roslavets's early(ish) piano music, some passages in which I do find pretty hard to read.

[amateur51]

But actually, within a tonal context, the double accidentals make things easier to understand in terms of modulations and of the structure of the music. The key of C flat major might be the same as the key of B major when viewed in isolation, but when viewed in the context of a more extended tonal structure, which in practice any key always is, it's understood as a different thing, since musical structures consist not only of sounds but of relationships between sounds. The relationships thus become easier to understand, and indeed probably to sightread, through the use of double accidentals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCPIrs90eg

[Richard Barrett]

He that toucheth pitch, shall be defiled therewith.

[teamsaint]

all those double flats and sharpseses aint natural.

[Flay]

all those double flats and sharpseses aint natural.

But ferney is talking sense

[teamsaint]

But ferney is talking sense[/QUOTE]


yes......................while those grade 5 tutors are laughing all the way to the bank.

(and good luck to them).

[EdgeleyRob]

Not really - it's because keyboard instruments needed some form of Equal Temperament tuning so that they could approximate in Tonal Music to what Musical instruments and voices did "naturally" (well, after a couple of decades practice, at any rate). It's easy to forget, after hearing Magicians who can break the rules of Physics such as Kempff, Brendel, Barenboim, Gilels, Pace, Hodges etc etc, that the Piano is just a typewriter with attitude. In Ab minor, Cb is not the same as B natural (and, on real Musical instruments, B natural in G# minor doesn't sound "the same" as B natural in G major, and they both sound slightly different from the B natural in E major or the B natural in C major.

There is nothing "theoretical" about this - very often you can hear a singer singing "out-of-tune", but bash out the written note on the piano and s/he is "in tune" with it, but not with the Tonal acoustic of the melodic line of a piece. It's to attempt to accommodate real Tonal (and "tonal") differences onto the five lines of a staff that double sharps and flats are essential for instrumental and vocal lines. Even on Pianos, a modulation to G# major/minor in a piece in E major needs an F double sharp rather than G natural (as a Leading note) just as much as a modulation to G major/minor needs an F#, not a Gb. And a modulation back needs an F (single)# which would require a natural sign followed by a sharp sign to avoid uncertainty.

Thanks Ferney.
However you'll have to bear with me as I am new to this music theory malarkey,so there could be a few silly questions coming your way.
So a B double flat and an A natural would sound the same on say, a Piano,but not as a sung note,or maybe on a violin ??

And what about this beast



Me learning to play the Piano one day seems a million miles away since I started reading up on this kind of stuff.

[ahinton]

He that toucheth pitch, shall be defiled therewith.

Thus speaks our Bible black man of Wales! (and even the pitch is black, too)...