Musical questions and answers thread

[Roehre]

Roehre (post #87).

Fascinating subject this.

Silly question time,are KV (köchel verzeichnis) and K numbers one and the same ?

Yes.
The difference being that in non-English literature/speaking areas KV is used, in English speaking countries K.
K. however is also used for e.g. Kirkpatrick (Scarlatti as well as Ives!, in English and non-English areas/literature) or for Kindermann (Busoni's output, almost exclusively in English literature, the German one uses Kind.).
The letter V is (universally and hence in English speaking countries too) used in catalogue numbers like Schmieder's Bach Werke Verzeichnis BWV, the Schütz Werke Verzeichnis SWV, the Händel Werke Verzeichnis HWV or the Wagner Werke Verzeichnis WWV, or the Buxtehude Werke Verzeichnis BuxWV, etc.
It's only consequent to use KV, but that's obviously personal taste.

Note that there are many catalogue numbers named after the authors, like D for Deutsch (Schubert, in Germany infrequently DV), J for Jähn (Weber), Wotq for Wotquenne (CPEBach), P for Pincherle (Vivaldi, again in Germany infrequently PV), M for Moldenauer (Webern), B for Burghauser (Dvorak), H for Halbreich (both Honegger and Martinu !) , Hob. for Hoboken (Joseph Haydn), Kind for Kinderman (Busoni, see also above), S for Searle (Liszt), R for Ryom (Vivaldi, increasingly cited as RV), TN for Threfall and Norris (Rachmaninov).
Remarkably Asov's work catalogue of Richard Strauss' output is universally cited as AV.

With increasing frequency we see WoO (Werk ohne Opusnumber / Work without an opusnumber) numbers appear:
the first time used by Kinsky/Halm in the 1955 BeethovenVerzeichnis, these now have adopted for i.a. Brahms, Schumann, Spohr

[David-G]

Roehre (post #87).

Fascinating subject this.

Silly question time,are KV (köchel verzeichnis) and K numbers one and the same ?

"Verzeichnis" means catalogue, listing, enumeration.

[ahinton]

Sorabji just has K numbers...

[EdgeleyRob]

Thanks again folks.

[kea]

But surely this is down (firstly) to "usage", he's been known as "Max" for some time and presumably doesn't discourage it. Say "Davies Symphony No.2" to someone now and they might just say, sorry - who?
..."Maxwell Davies" identifies him (with his oeuvre, his artistic personality) sounds more distinctive of his significance... or you could simply say that "Peter Davies" is a person, "Peter Maxwell Davies" is the composer and performer...

PMD seems to identify so much more with the "Max" moniker that he's essentially dropped the "Peter" by now, along the lines of J. Michael Straczynski. If he's famous in a hundred years, for some reason, I imagine his case will be similar to that of Franz Joseph Haydn whose first name is never used. I suppose we currently use "Maxwell Davies" simply because Davies on its own is such a common name; thus also Tansy, Dennis Russell, etc.

Beyond (or within) custom and formality, I think the enjoyment of language, "language games", linguistic flourishes like birdcalls, count for a lot too. "Bernd Alois Zimmerman" or "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" are pleasurable, rhythmically, syllabically and sonorously, to say aloud

That's true, I suppose Wolfgang Theophilus Mozart is technically more correct but it's just more awkward to say.

But he himself anglicised the Georg and dropped the umlaut as soon as he got here, though he seems to have been in several minds about the spelling of his middle name.

Indeed. Actually, given the frequency with which Georg Friedrich/George Frederick/variations thereof pops up in the 18th and 19th centuries I wonder if it was at one time a double-barrelled first name along the lines of Jean-Claude or Ana-Maria, and therefore not really a middle name after all. (And how much that might apply to any of the other instances I listed, for that matter.) Of course, it's not really one in common usage today, which makes Georg Friedrich Haas all the more egregious.

Interesting how this tends to play out with other public figures, especially in the United States—
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Frank Lloyd Wright
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Ralph Waldo Emerson
but
George W. Bush

[teamsaint]

Interesting how this tends to play out with other public figures, especially in the United States—
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Frank Lloyd Wright
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Ralph Waldo Emerson
but
George W. Bush

and especially with Blues singers....

[ahinton]

Interesting how this tends to play out with other public figures, especially in the United States—
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Frank Lloyd Wright
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Ralph Waldo Emerson
but
George W. Bush

Not only there, either - and your last example reminds me of the odd habit of using initials only for the forenames of people such as L Subramaniam, V S Naipaul, E M Forster, A N Wilson, M R James, C S Lewis, T S Eliot et al - OK, so it's "musical questions and answers" thread - so H K Gruber, then...

[Bryn]

... so H K Gruber, then...

But "every schoolboy knows that" Heinz Karl is Nali, so should be filed under "N".

[french frank]

That's true, I suppose Wolfgang Theophilus Mozart is technically more correct but it's just more awkward to say.

Or the most authentic one of all (Leopold announces the birth of his son to a friend): Wolfgang Gottlieb Mozart, which takes precedence even over the birth certificate entry, in which many names are automatically given (pseudo-) Latin forms e.g. Leopoldus, Wolfgangus - and Theophilus.

[jean]

Theophilus is Greek - Amadeus is the Latin. But Theophilus is a genuine name used by genuine Greeks, while Amadeus only occurs as a Latinisation of that.

[ahinton]

But "every schoolboy knows that" Heinz Karl is Nali, so should be filed under "N".

On which basis, O Sage, where/how should Karl Heinz be filed? I don't think that many schoolboys know that he was Ilan (and I imagine that even Mr Volkov non Solomon himself would be unaware of this)...

[David-G]

A question. Is the innkeeper "Lillas Pastia" (Carmen) a man or a woman? I have always thought of him as a man - but in the current production at Covent Garden she is a woman. Have I been wrong all this time? Or is the character's sex undefined? Any light shed on this would be welcome!

[Don Petter]

A question. Is the innkeeper "Lillas Pastia" (Carmen) a man or a woman? I have always thought of him as a man - but in the current production at Covent Garden she is a woman. Have I been wrong all this time? Or is the character's sex undefined? Any light shed on this would be welcome!

I'd always assumed a woman, but without any real justification. The score seems to give the part as 'spoken'.

Sites which purport to give the meaning of first names do seem to assume it is a female name.

[Flosshilde]

No, as I even didn't know Birtwistle's middle name .
But on the continent e.g. Harrison Paul Birtwistle is Birtwistle and Peter Maxwell Davies is Maxwell Davies.

I don't care what they do on the continent (which continent?) (which might gladden the heart of Mr Pee) but the British Library list him under 'Davies' & in my book that's definitive.

[Flosshilde]

Of course they are, as Beethoven is under Van as is usual under American alphabetical convention of foreign names,

Which convention? The Library of Congress lists him as Beethoven, Ludwig Van. Again, definitive.