Musical questions and answers thread

[kea]

Supplementary:
Why do composers (and others ) not always (or often) get the courtesy of their First name, or a title. ?

I've always wondered a bit about the titles in particular. If Richard Barrett were sitting across from us in person we would probably call him Mr Barrett, or Richard or Richie or R-Man or The Barrettinator or whatever else he gave us permission to call him. However as soon as we start talking about one of his compositions he just becomes Barrett, no title, or Richard Barrett, even though we almost never address people by their full names.

Supplementary to that is that his piece of music becomes "the Barrett" if it's on a programme with other composers, or "the string quintet/flute solo/guitar and percussion piece" if it's not. Only a critic will ever use its actual title. I've never really understood that either.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, unless there's also a piece by Natasha Barrett on the programme, of course.

And what about Peter Maxwell Davies? The only composer I know whose works are frequently filed under "M" instead of "D", as if "Maxwell Davies" is his surname.

[cloughie]

Well, unless there's also a piece by Natasha Barrett on the programme, of course.

And what about Peter Maxwell Davies? The only composer I know whose works are frequently filed under "M" instead of "D", as if "Maxwell Davies" is his surname.

Then there's the RR Bennett problem - Richard Rodney and Robert Russell.

[kea]

Well, unless there's also a piece by Natasha Barrett on the programme, of course.

And what about Peter Maxwell Davies? The only composer I know whose works are frequently filed under "M" instead of "D", as if "Maxwell Davies" is his surname.

Similarly there is Joly Braga Santos (who also had two other first names, but I've forgotten them). I still have no idea under what letter to look for him in the library, thus I've never heard any of his works. Composers' parents need to give these things more thought you know!

Then there's the RR Bennett problem - Richard Rodney and Robert Russell.

Every Bennett out there seems to have three names. We never hear anything about William Bennett without a Sterndale appearing somewhere in the middle.

Other composers who never (or very rarely) appear without their middle names—leaving aside standardised compounds like Carl Maria or Jan Krtitel—include Wolfgang Mozart, Georg Telemann, Georg Händel, Ignacy Paderewski, Erich Korngold, Josef Hauer, Hans Henze, Bernd Zimmermann, Gottfried Koenig, Henryk Górecki and Aaron Kernis. Understandable in cases like Johann Bach where the middle names serve useful disambiguative purposes, but in most of these cases there's no real excuse.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, unless there's also a piece by Natasha Barrett on the programme, of course.

And what about Peter Maxwell Davies? The only composer I know whose works are frequently filed under "M" instead of "D", as if "Maxwell Davies" is his surname.

But surely this is down (firstly) to "usage", he's been known as "Max" for some time and presumably doesn't discourage it. Say "Davies Symphony No.2" to someone now and they might just say, sorry - who?
..."Maxwell Davies" identifies him (with his oeuvre, his artistic personality) sounds more distinctive of his significance... or you could simply say that "Peter Davies" is a person, "Peter Maxwell Davies" is the composer and performer...

Beyond (or within) custom and formality, I think the enjoyment of language, "language games", linguistic flourishes like birdcalls, count for a lot too. "Bernd Alois Zimmerman" or "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" are pleasurable, rhythmically, syllabically and sonorously, to say aloud - and "Amadeus" is now richly layered with meanings... Rock me Amadeus!.

So "Hans Henze" can sound personal, a bit like chummy name-dropping, I've worked with him I know him etc.; whereas "Hans Werner Henze" resonates with cultural meaning - and is a very direct, very limited index to an oeuvre or style or discography. And a declarative flourish on a middlename can also be a way of exhibiting knowledge, of tribal self-identification - of saying, "I belong" in the Classical Musical culture... (but in another context that can be expressed by contraction, i.e. "Mahler 5", "Rach 2", DSCH, etc)...

Each will have a specific value in the given social, intellectual and conversational conventions.

[jean]

...Georg Händel...

But he himself anglicised the Georg and dropped the umlaut as soon as he got here, though he seems to have been in several minds about the spelling of his middle name.

[Sir Velo]

But he himself anglicised the Georg and dropped the umlaut as soon as he got here, though he seems to have been in several minds about the spelling of his middle name.

Unless I'm mistaken, Kea's point was that Handel is always given two first names regardless of the way they're spelt.

[jean]

I know. Mine was a supplementary point - or tangential, if you prefer.

Here's another: the further you go back in musical history, the more alternative names you find for the same composer. I think the prize for the greatest number must go to

Jacob Handl (3 July 1550 — 18 July 1591)

Alternative Names/Transliterations: Jacobus Gallus, Jacob Hähnel, Jakob Gallus, Jakob Petelin, Jacobus Handelius, Jacobus Carniolus, Jacob Hänel, Jakobus Gallus, Iacobo Handl, Jacob Haendl, Jacob Haendel, Jacobus Händel, Jacobis Carniolanus, Iacobus Gallus, Jakob Handl

.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But surely this is down (firstly) to "usage", he's been known as "Max" for some time and presumably doesn't discourage it. Say "Davies Symphony No.2" to someone now and they might just say, sorry - who?

Quite; but why? Did "Davies" not sound remarkable enough at the start of his career. And why just him? Mozart is never filed under "A", no matter how "pleasurable, rhythmically, syllabically [?] and sonorously ... richly layered" some people find the name he never used.

..."Maxwell Davies" identifies him (with his oeuvre, his artistic personality) sounds more distinctive of his significance...

Again, Why? Is it just good old-fashioned English snobbery?

So "Hans Henze" can sound personal, a bit like chummy name-dropping, I've worked with him I know him etc

Lutos said something very similar to me in one of our conversations.

[Bryn]

My PMD recordings are all filed under "D". Should we perhaps file Birtwistle's work under "H" for "Harry", for as such is he known to many?

[Roehre]

My PMD recordings are all filed under "D". Should we perhaps file Birtwistle's work under "H" for "Harry", for as such is he known to many?

Mine are under "M", as Maxwell is a perfect surname, contrary to Amadeus or Harry.
It could be alois Zimmermann or Werner Henze btw, as both Alois and Wer(h)er are proper German surnames.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My PMD recordings are all filed under "D".

Mine, too. Seems a bit ungrateful to the efforts and sacrifices Mr & Mrs Davies made for their son to receive his Musical education to suggest that their surname isn't good enough on its own. Anyone would think PMD was Andrew Lloyd Webber.


Which isn't a sentence that you'll hear very often!

[Bryn]

Mine are under "M", as Maxwell is a perfect surname, contrary to Amadeus or Harry.
It could be alois Zimmermann or Werner Henze btw, as both Alois and Wer(h)er are proper German surnames.

But Maxwell is not part of his surname. It is one of his forenames (his middle name). Do you file Harrison Birtwistle under "P"? "Paul" is, after all, a perfectly good surname, e.g. Les Paul.

[ahinton]

Mine, too. Seems a bit ungrateful to the efforts and sacrifices Mr & Mrs Davies made for their son to receive his Musical education to suggest that their surname isn't good enough on its own. Anyone would think PMD was Andrew Lloyd Webber.


Which isn't a sentence that you'll hear very often!

It'sd bad enough to have heard (or rather read) it at all! It's perhaps a good thing that his first name wasn't George! A composer I know refers to him as "Lord Lloyd Loom"; no names,. no pack drill and all that but a clue to his identity might be that his surname could well be another contender for discussion in this thread...

[EnemyoftheStoat]

"Paul" is, after all, a perfectly good surname, e.g. Les Paul.

As the Parisians call the coffee shop chain.