Musical questions and answers thread

[Alison]

How about a place for questions and answers? Stacks of things I'd like to know but it may feel OTT starting a new thread on something relatively trivial.

Ok, starter for ten:

I have just downloaded a recording labelled as THE Messiah by Handel.

Is this the correct title of the work or should the definite article always be dropped?

[Ferretfancy]

Everybody knows that it's just Messiah, preferably performed on slightly out of tune early instruments with an unstable Irish choir and Emma Kirkby. Nothing else is acceptable, I'm afraid! Happy New Year !

PS Nice idea for a thread .

[umslopogaas]

Such an apparently simple question, until you come up against "The". Basically, it is either "The Messiah" or the "Messiah". I have four recordings and they arent consistent.

Sargent. Handel's "Messiah"

Davis. Handel Messiah/ Haendel Le Messie/Handel Der Messias

Klemperer. Handel Messiah

Marriner. Messiah. Includes a quote from the publicity blurb of the time: "This day will be performed Mr Handel's new Grand Sacred Oratorio, called The MESSIAH. The Doors will be opened at Eleven, ..."

The definitive answer is probably what was printed on the title page of the contemporary score, but it isnt reproduced in any of my booklets. Anyone got a copy?

[Alison]

FF

What were they thinking of at LSO Live then? I'm referring to the Sir Colin Davis version of course.

Happy New year to you too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Handel's manuscript has the title page "Messiah - an Oratorio" - the assumption being that "The Messiah" referred only to Christ.

[Petrushka]

Handel's manuscript has the title page "Messiah - an Oratorio" - the assumption being that "The Messiah" referred only to Christ.

Yes, this is absolutely correct in my view. The recordings I have (Mackerras on LP, Sargent and Solti on CD are consistent in this respect).

While on the subject of the definite article I wish record companies and others would not refer to Schubert's Die Winterreise. It isn't.

[verismissimo]

... I wish record companies and others would not refer to Schubert's Die Winterreise. It isn't.

On the cover of my Schreier/Richter set on LP, it's Winterreise on the cover and Die Winterreise heading the text.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... and, as for Die Götterdammerung and I Pagliacci: it's pits!

[Beef Oven!]

... and, as for Die Götterdammerung and I Pagliacci: it's pits!

And what about the abuse the guitarist Rick Ringer gets on German releases!

[Serial_Apologist]

The Messiah was a bloke, not a piece of musak.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Similarly, is it Deck the Hall with Boughs of Holly or Deck the Halls with Boughs of Holly?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Similarly, is it Deck the Hall with Boughs of Holly or Deck the Halls with Boughs of Holly?

Depends whether or not you were in 5C at school ...

[makropulos]

Yes, no "The" - there's none on the first edition of the score (1767), or the earlier "Songs in Messiah" (1763), or on the much earlier first edition of Jennens's libretto (1749).

But what I find intriguing is how early it came to be called "The Messiah" - this isn't a recent phenomenon. It's described as such on a vocal score published by Harrison in the 1780s, and by Burney in his description of the Handel celebrations at Westminster Abbey in 1784 ("Fifth performance; The Messiah. By command of His Majesty"), and on a concert poster for a benefit concert for Mr. [William] Herschel in 1778 - described in a nice blog here:

http://blog.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/2010/04/07/sweet-caroline/

And, when Mozart's arrangement was first published by Breitkopf (in 1803), it is described on the title page as "Der Messias", and that definite article has tended to stick in German. The Bärenreiter Urtext edition by John Tobin (1965) called it "Der Messias – The Messiah".

[Alison]

Yes, no "The" - there's none on the first edition of the score (1767), or the earlier "Songs in Messiah" (1763), or on the much earlier first edition of Jennens's libretto (1749).

But what I find intriguing is how early it came to be called "The Messiah" - this isn't a recent phenomenon. It's described as such on a vocal score published by Harrison in the 1780s, and by Burney in his description of the Handel celebrations at Westminster Abbey in 1784 ("Fifth performance; The Messiah. By command of His Majesty"), and on a concert poster for a benefit concert for Mr. [William] Herschel in 1778 - described in a nice blog here:

http://blog.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/2010/04/07/sweet-caroline/

And, when Mozart's arrangement was first published by Breitkopf (in 1803), it is described on the title page as "Der Messias", and that definite article has tended to stick in German. The Bärenreiter Urtext edition by John Tobin (1965) called it "Der Messias – The Messiah".

Many thanks. We need another question now!

[Alison]

Ok then ....

How well did Janacek and Mahler know each other ?