Musical questions and answers thread

[Alison]

Good question Smitts. Wonderful sonata; the Stephen Hough version demands to be heard!

[smittims]

Well yes, indeed, but what is the answer???

[Serial_Apologist]

Well yes, indeed, but what is the answer???

[Pulcinella]

Another basic question, the answer to which I could probably discover by Googling (but answers here tend to be much more fun to read!).

When did the notes we use get their letter names, and how/why?
Given that the scale of C has no sharps or flats, why didn't what we now know as Middle C become A?

I started thinking this at choir last week, when I stumbled in one of our warming-up exercises. Possibly old age, but I'm not sure I could ever have done it.

Starting on Middle C (as 1), we go up the major scale and back down in sequence, singing the numbers as we sing each note:
1 121 12321 1234321 123454321 12345654321 1234567654321 123456787654321
Then we occasionally have to do the same but missing some notes out (say 2 first, then 2 and 4), but still leaving their 'space' as a rest:
1 1 1 1 3 1 1 343 1 1......
1 1 1 1 3 1 1 3 3 1 1.....

That's not too bad (and apparently helps us pitch intervals), but then we changed to the names of the notes:
C CDC CDEDC CDEFEDC CDEFGFEDC CDEFGAGFEDC CDEFGABAGFEDC CDEFGABCBAGFEDC
Even playing a silent keyboard with my fingers to help, I simply found I couldn't do that, and got completely tongue-tied.
I'm not sure that it would have been easier if the letters had started with A, but it set me thinking!

So a challenge as well: how easy do you find it?

[Joseph K]

Another basic question, the answer to which I could probably discover by Googling (but answers here tend to be much more fun to read!).

When did the notes we use get their letter names, and how/why?
Given that the scale of C has no sharps or flats, why didn't what we now know as Middle C become A?

I started thinking this at choir last week, when I stumbled in one of our warming-up exercises. Possibly old age, but I'm not sure I could ever have done it.

Starting on Middle C (as 1), we go up the major scale and back down in sequence, singing the numbers as we sing each note:
1 121 12321 1234321 123454321 12345654321 1234567654321 123456787654321
Then we occasionally have to do the same but missing some notes out (say 2 first, then 2 and 4), but still leaving their 'space' as a rest:
1 1 1 1 3 1 1 343 1 1......
1 1 1 1 3 1 1 3 3 1 1.....

That's not too bad (and apparently helps us pitch intervals), but then we changed to the names of the notes:
C CDC CDEDC CDEFEDC CDEFGFEDC CDEFGAGFEDC CDEFGABAGFEDC CDEFGABCBAGFEDC
Even playing a silent keyboard with my fingers to help, I simply found I couldn't do that, and got completely tongue-tied.
I'm not sure that it would have been easier if the letters had started with A, but it set me thinking!

So a challenge as well: how easy do you find it?

I've been practising sight-singing on and off for a number of years. Largely off, but I recently restarted, and I bought the workbooks for The Complete Musician book I link to above (which I already have) - book 2 is the one for musicianship and is packed full of dictation, sight-singing and keyboard exercises that will keep me busy for a year or more! I don't find it too difficult using the letter names for notes.

When you mentioned how notes got their letter names the name that sprung to my mind was Guido d'Arezzo, and indeed his solmization system, solfege, is still used in lots of other countries. I admit I've followed along a few wiki pages, but while it says what happened, it doesn't say who was responsible and why it happened, though it does mention some geographical discrepancies such as the aforementioned use of solfege in some countries and in others such a Germany the use of H instead of B (and B for B-flat). It seems more than one music theorist used the Roman Alphabet for note names through history, starting with Boethius. The page I'm looking at says that it ended up starting from C rather than A because C is the simplest major scale, but it doesn't say why, so I guess we'll have to dig a bit deeper into the how and why. I suppose it's not more arbitrary than any other system...

[Ein Heldenleben]

I've been practising sight-singing on and off for a number of years. Largely off, but I recently restarted, and I bought the workbooks for The Complete Musician book I link to above (which I already have) - book 2 is the one for musicianship and is packed full of dictation, sight-singing and keyboard exercises that will keep me busy for a year or more! I don't find it too difficult using the letter names for notes.

When you mentioned how notes got their letter names the name that sprung to my mind was Guido d'Arezzo, and indeed his solmization system, solfege, is still used in lots of other countries. I admit I've followed along a few wiki pages, but while it says what happened, it doesn't say who was responsible and why it happened, though it does mention some geographical discrepancies such as the aforementioned use of solfege in some countries and in others such a Germany the use of H instead of B (and B for B-flat). It seems more than one music theorist used the Roman Alphabet for note names through history, starting with Boethius. The page I'm looking at says that it ended up starting from C rather than A because C is the simplest major scale, but it doesn't say why, so I guess we'll have to dig a bit deeper into the how and why. I suppose it's not more arbitrary than any other system...

I’ve got no idea but I suspect it might have more to do with F being the bass clef and G being the treble. That leaves middle c in the middle . My guess as to why F is where it is in on five line stage is that leaves fewer ledger lines (see the Britten strand !) for the commonest male Voice - the baritone. It suits my typical baritone voice which can do E below the stave and F above it.
But I could be completely wrong. Or maybe it’s middle C because it’s the middle note of the piano . It’s certainly where you centre yourself.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Another basic question, the answer to which I could probably discover by Googling (but answers here tend to be much more fun to read!).

When did the notes we use get their letter names, and how/why?
Given that the scale of C has no sharps or flats, why didn't what we now know as Middle C become A?

That assumes that the prime scale is the major (Ionian mode)
But there were/are many other modes, the most common being the Dorian and the Aeolian. The Aeolian is the scale from A to A on the white keys, and is the minor mode without the raised 7th (a later addition). That could be the reason for choosing the letter names.

[Joseph K]

I’ve got no idea but I suspect it might have more to do with F being the bass clef and G being the treble. That leaves middle c in the middle . My guess as to why F is where it is in on five line stage is that leaves fewer ledger lines (see the Britten strand !) for the commonest male Voice - the baritone. It suits my typical baritone voice which can do E below the stave and F above it.
But I could be completely wrong. Or maybe it’s middle C because it’s the middle note of the piano . It’s certainly where you centre yourself.

I've dug out Richard Hoppin's book on Medieval Music. Seems the first plainchant notation used C and F clefs, the latter a fifth below the former.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Interesting - I think the G treble clef became more useful when boys and eventually women were allowed into the world of choral singing.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There's a tune going through my head. It's something I've known for many years, but I've been going through my memory banks for days, and I just can't identify it. It starts something like this:

[Mario]

Not surprisingly EA, I cannot help with the tune, but may I ask how you embedded the score in your post please?

Thanks!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not surprisingly EA, I cannot help with the tune, but may I ask how you embedded the score in your post please?

Thanks!

I saved it as a jpeg and then moved it to Imgur, and transferred the BB code to the forum post.

[Mario]

But thanks anyway!

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's a tune going through my head. It's something I've known for many years, but I've been going through my memory banks for days, and I just can't identify it. It starts something like this:

Ok so it’s waltz on C major that doesn’t modulate and had a simple I IV V II type chordal accompaniment. The tune doesn’t quite flow right in bar two but it does seem awfully familiar. I think it’s from a film score. Have you tried that musical dictionary where you enter note up , down, or same ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ok so it’s waltz on C major that doesn’t modulate and had a simple I IV V II type chordal accompaniment. The tune doesn’t quite flow right in bar two but it does seem awfully familiar. I think it’s from a film score. Have you tried that musical dictionary where you enter note up , down, or same ?

I have tried that dictionary, with and without the first note, but it hasn’t helped. It isn’t necessarily in C major though.