Musical questions and answers thread

[Pabmusic]

The simple answer is no - modes needn't be related to a fixed point. ...

Here's an interesting video that treats modes realistically for our age. It deals with the Cinderella of modes - the Locrian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6JBsOzOFaQ

[Pulcinella]

A new word (or rather a new musical use/sense of a word) for me, and Wiki didn't help (but an ordinary dictionary did!).

point

Encountered in this sentence at the top of an edition of Gibbons' O clap your hands that our choir director has just sent out to us.

At the Gloria, opinion is divided between making the third note of the point always a D natural, and alternating between flats and naturals.

Oxford Dictionaries gave me this definition (number 18 in their list for the noun):

MUSIC
an important phrase or subject, especially in a contrapuntal composition.

Have I simply led a sheltered life if I've not come across this term before?
I know what a pedal point is, though.

[Richard Barrett]

Have I simply led a sheltered life if I've not come across this term before?

I've come across it only in the formulation "point of imitation", that is to say a motive that spreads through the voices. I imagine from your context that this is what's meant, and the "imitation" bit is intended to go without saying.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The simple answer is no - modes needn't be related to a fixed point. The opening bars of RVW's Pastoral Symphony are in (effectively) a mixolydian mode with a nudge into dorian when flutes and clarinets take over, all based around G.

Folk-singers (not only in English-speaking places - this apples equally to Bartok's researches) used modes very freely - and very naturally, too. Some tunes would switch modes for a line or two.

But there might be musical 'grammar police' who would insist I'm wrong (and I would be perhaps if I were talking about ecclesiastical music of a much earlier time). In art there are generally no rules other than those which appeal to the artist at the time. 'Rules' are usually descriptive rather than prescriptive (or proscriptive come to that).

Mellers in VW and the Vision of Albion has the ‘Symphony in D‘ as “Being in the mixolydian mode on D with no sharp sevenths” . He then goes on to describe that as “too simple “ . In some of his RVW analyses how he works out the mode and the underlying key - or sometimes two keys - is beyond me. Long nights at the piano or just endless note counting from score , maybe he just had a terrific ear..?

[Pulcinella]

I've come across it only in the formulation "point of imitation", that is to say a motive that spreads through the voices. I imagine from your context that this is what's meant, and the "imitation" bit is intended to go without saying.

That certainly makes sense: the parts the comment relates to come in pretty quickly after each other, in imitation.

The score is here, if anyone wants to investigate:

https://www.ancientgroove.co.uk/freebies/gibbonsoclap.pdf

The link directs you to a copyright 2017 edition.
The one we were sent is copyright 2019 (slightly different layout) and it says Licensed to print and perform, so I'm hopeful that posting the link is OK!

[Pabmusic]

Mellers in VW and the Vision of Albion has the ‘Symphony in D‘ as “Being in the mixolydian mode on D with no sharp sevenths” . He then goes on to describe that as “too simple “ . In some of his RVW analyses how he works out the mode and the underlying key - or sometimes two keys - is beyond me. Long nights at the piano or just endless note counting from score , maybe he just had a terrific ear..?

I think the thing is that RVW almost certainly didn't work up a theme in terms of modes. He (or others) might have tried to describe it in such terms after it had been written, of course, but words are a poor medium for describing music. An example is in the Wilfred Mellers quote you give, since "the mixolydian mode on D with no sharp sevenths" is confusing - a feature of the mixolydian is the flattened seventh, so to draw attention to "no sharp sevenths" is simply confusing. Is this an extra feature above the criteria for this mode?

I'm sure RVW simply thought modally - after all, he'd collected enough folk songs, none of whose singers (I'm sure) ever considered modes.

[Bryn]

I think the thing is that RVW almost certainly didn't work up a theme in terms of modes. He (or others) might have tried to describe it in such terms after it had been written, of course, but words are a poor medium for describing music. An example is in the Wilfred Mellers quote you give, since "the mixolydian mode on D with no sharp sevenths" is confusing - a feature of the mixolydian is the flattened seventh, so to draw attention to "no sharp sevenths" is simply confusing. Is this an extra feature above the criteria for this mode?

I'm sure RVW simply thought modally - after all, he'd collected enough folk songs, none of whose singers (I'm sure) ever considered modes.

Nail, squarely on head, struck.

[Dave2002]

I wonder if in fact modes are constructs which are best understood by guitarists. Looking for videos about this suggests that guitarists have a good handle on this. Obviously other musicians can follow this, but for some reason guitarists seem to be able to grasp these quite easily.

Or am I just wrong about this?

[Richard Barrett]

I'm sure RVW simply thought modally - after all, he'd collected enough folk songs, none of whose singers (I'm sure) ever considered modes.

Indeed. And it might be relevant to add that, as well as European folk music, pretty much every other musical tradition in the world throughout history has based its pitch structures on what we now call modes, without necessarily systematising them in the manner of the ancient Greeks, although of course many traditions, among which could be mentioned those of north and south India, Japan, China, Iran and Turkey, have produced extensive and detailed characterisations of modes.

[Pabmusic]

Indeed. And it might be relevant to add that, as well as European folk music, pretty much every other musical tradition in the world throughout history has based its pitch structures on what we now call modes, without necessarily systematising them in the manner of the ancient Greeks, although of course many traditions, among which could be mentioned those of north and south India, Japan, China, Iran and Turkey, have produced extensive and detailed characterisations of modes.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I wonder if in fact modes are constructs which are best understood by guitarists. Looking for videos about this suggests that guitarists have a good handle on this. Obviously other musicians can follow this, but for some reason guitarists seem to be able to grasp these quite easily.

Or am I just wrong about this?

As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted ..
I think modes are even easier to understand on the piano as they correspond to the white notes thus avoiding those pesky thinner black keys.
However it’s amazing now much classic British rock has modal chord structures e.g. the repeated A minor , G major, F major chords in the much overplayed guitar break in Stairway to Heaven. I’d always assumed that is more to do with the strength of the English/ Scots etc folk tradition which has enriched so much pop music.

[Serial_Apologist]

As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted ..
I think if modes are even easier to understand on the piano as they correspond to the white notes thus avoiding those pesky thinner black keys.
However it’s amazing now much classic British rock has modal chord structures e.g. the repeated A minor , G major, F major chords in the much overplayed guitar break in Stairway to Heaven. I’d always assumed that is more to do with the strength of the English/ Scots etc folk tradition which has enriched so much pop music.

I've always felt that to be the case.

[Dave2002]

I've always felt that to be the case.

However, (largely) US based jazz musicians seem to have based some of their work on modes since the 1960s.

[Joseph K]

As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted ..
I think modes are even easier to understand on the piano as they correspond to the white notes thus avoiding those pesky thinner black keys.

On the other hand, and this might back-up Dave's point, intervals are more easily visualised on the guitar fretboard than they are, IMO, on the piano. It's for this reason that transposing to what other instrumentalists would consider an obscure key can be easy on the guitar since it might just involve shifting things up a fret.

Also, not every mode avoids the pesky black keys - I thought we'd established that earlier?

[Ein Heldenleben]

On the other hand, and this might back-up Dave's point, intervals are more easily visualised on the guitar fretboard than they are, IMO, on the piano. It's for this reason that transposing to what other instrumentalists would consider an obscure key can be easy on the guitar since it might just involve shifting things up a fret.

Also, not every mode avoids the pesky black keys - I thought we'd established that earlier?

I’ve played both - have to say I say I find judging intervals easier on the piano but I started earlier on that and pretty much gave up on the guitar. I found classical guitar too difficult , couldn’t stop biting my nails, found the left hand wrist position uncomfortable- all the usual excuses .
I think all the modes are playable on the white notes - maybe I’m wrong... If you want to play Lydian / Dorian etc in G FLAT be my guest !
You could start with the Chopin black keys etude which is pentatonic in GFlat and is an absolute knuckle breaker !