Musical questions and answers thread

[Dave2002]

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not an entirely reliable source. In this case, it seems fair enough but how is someone new to the subject to know this? That said, an Internet search on the question offers plenty of reliably supported relevant information, to be sure, as do any number of readily available music reference books. Charity shops often have them at very low cost.

Which indeed is part of the reason for my links to Britannica, though I think that claims that it is more reliable are not always justified.

The original question was, I thought, simple enough - absolute or relative - in modern parlance - if indeed there is such a thing as "modern parlance".

[Joseph K]

Modes - many of us have heard of modes, and are aware that some composers, such as VW had tendencies to use modal forms. Now I see that some jazz and popular musicians are also talking (occasionally at least) about modes.

Clearly modes as they are now, are somewhat different from what they were in medieval times, or even in some periods much closer to our own.

What I want to know is whether they are generally now considered as absolute, or whether they are relative to a key or tonic centre.

What I mean here is if we take an accepted pattern of modes - Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian, are these always related to a tonic on C (or approximately there - allowing for tuning variations), or does it make sense to talk about E:Ionian or E: Phrygian, for example - which would have the notes E - Fsharp - Gsharp - A - B - Csharp and Dsharp and then G sharp - A - B - Csharp - D sharp - Gsharp - F sharp - Gsharp respectively?

Incidentally, E Phrygian would be E - F - G - A - B - C - D; what you have written is G sharp Phrygian.

Modes can be quite confusing if you're tracing their use and thought in Early Music, but not so much in their modern/jazz use.

[Richard Barrett]

There's also this https://www.teoria.com/ which I recommend highly; and of course books.

[Dave2002]

Incidentally, E Phrygian would be E - F - G - A - B - C - D; what you have written is G sharp Phrygian.

Modes can be quite confusing if you're tracing their use and thought in Early Music, but not so much in their modern/jazz use.

That's interesting. I need to think a bit more, but essentially I generated my sequence by going up a couple of whole steps up the E major scale. It looks as though that was not the correct approach, which presumably is (a) select mode, then (b) transpose up or down to get a new starting "tonic".

So applying this method, I'm guessing that C sharp - D sharp - F (E sharp) - G - G sharp - B (A sharp) - C is C sharp Lydian.

Modal jazz has a history going back to the 1950s. There is an interesting article in Wikipedia again - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz - though of course not confirmed as an accurate description.

[Joseph K]

That's interesting. I need to think a bit more, but essentially I generated my sequence by going up a couple of whole steps up the E major scale. It looks as though that was not the correct approach, which presumably is (a) select mode, then (b) transpose up or down to get a new starting "tonic".

So applying this method, I'm guessing that C sharp - D sharp - F (E sharp) - G - G sharp - B (A sharp) - C is C sharp Lydian.

Modal jazz has a history going back to the 1950s. There is an interesting article in Wikipedia again - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz - though of course not confirmed as an accurate description.

D flat Lydian is D flat - E flat - F - G - A flat - B flat - C (you'd never describe it as C sharp Lydian since it's derived from A flat!)

Yes 'modal jazz' is a very vague description for a few reasons - the use of modes in jazz from the 60s onwards became far wider than what would conventionally be considered 'modal jazz' e.g. post-bop, fusion and even free jazz all are or can be, 'modal'; also, it seems to me that it is a matter of harmonic rhythm to the extent that one would consider playing modally, e.g. on 'So What' because it only has two chords and importantly because of the duration each chord is held it's expected that each chord is thought of linearly. Quite a few of Wayne Shorter's tunes feature more than two chords, but because of the slow harmonic rhythm of some of the chords, i.e. the fact that they function like vamps, it can still be considered modal. But - even if the harmonic rhythm goes by quite quickly a musician might still be thinking or hearing in terms of modes, though this probably wouldn't fall under the rubric of 'modal'...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Modes - many of us have heard of modes, and are aware that some composers, such as VW had tendencies to use modal forms. Now I see that some jazz and popular musicians are also talking (occasionally at least) about modes.

Clearly modes as they are now, are somewhat different from what they were in medieval times, or even in some periods much closer to our own.

What I want to know is whether they are generally now considered as absolute, or whether they are relative to a key or tonic centre.

What I mean here is if we take an accepted pattern of modes - Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian, are these always related to a tonic on C (or approximately there - allowing for tuning variations), or does it make sense to talk about E:Ionian or E: Phrygian, for example - which would have the notes E - Fsharp - Gsharp - A - B - Csharp and Dsharp and then G sharp - A - B - Csharp - D sharp - Gsharp - F sharp - Gsharp respectively?

I’m not sure about church modes or going back 2500 years Greek modes but I know that modern musicologists like Wilfred Mellers when discussing Modes in Vaughan Williams always tie the mode in with the fundamental key - and that can vary . So you can have differing modes (Phygrian , Aeolian et al ) in both e or c for example

[Bryn]

I’m not sure about church modes or going back 2500 years Greek modes but I know that modern musicologists like Wilfred Mellers when discussing Modes in Vaughan Williams always tie the mode in with the fundamental key - and that can vary . So you can have differing modes (Phygrian , Aeolian et al ) in both e or c for example

Let's not forget Messiaen's modes of limited transposition.

[Richard Barrett]

'modal jazz' is a very vague description for a few reasons

Now I'm not an expert on the nuts and bolts of jazz, but I always thought the "modal jazz" concept derived from George Russell's theories which were highly influential on Miles, Coltrane and many others. As I understand it his "Lydian Chromatic Concept" is based on taking the circle of fifths as the basis of this approach to tonal harmony, and it's so named because the first seven elements in a circle of fifths, when compressed into an octave, produce a Lydian mode.

[Dave2002]

D flat Lydian is D flat - E flat - F - G - A flat - B flat - C (you'd never describe it as C sharp Lydian since it's derived from A flat!)

Same notes I think, so what's wrong with calling it C sharp Lydian? Probably too many sharps compared with the number of flats in A flat.

[Dave2002]

Now I'm not an expert on the nuts and bolts of jazz, but I always thought the "modal jazz" concept derived from George Russell's theories which were highly influential on Miles, Coltrane and many others. As I understand it his "Lydian Chromatic Concept" is based on taking the circle of fifths as the basis of this approach to tonal harmony, and it's so named because the first seven elements in a circle of fifths, when compressed into an octave, produce a Lydian mode.

That's indeed what it says in Wikipedia.

[Serial_Apologist]

Coincidentally, today I was listening to one of the jazz pianist Marian McPartland with guests programmes from the 1980s (the one which I recorded off the radio onto cassette). In this one her guest was McCoy Tyner, John Coltrane's pianist for about five years in the early 1960s. Not surprisingly they get to talk about modes, on a prompt from Marian, and, rather unhelpfully, Tyner says "I sometimes call them 'moods' - moods or modes", which could have been a reference to the different modes in Indian classical music for mood-evocation specific to times of the day or year, given that John Coltrane became influenced by Indian music. More usefully he talked about composing ones own modes as well as using the known ones, and the two of them proceeded to try and improvise together while doing this, to not very effective ends!

Empirical investigation (a fancy way of describing me messing arond at the piano!) suggests that the further one gets into modes which include more than the two semitones per octave of diatonic modal scales, the looser any necessary connection with root positioning becomes. Which is to say that the root can be placed anywhere or nowhere along the scale, so that, as with the whole-tone mode popularly associated with Debussy's music in particular, a "floaty" feel is obtained in which the music can remain in a state of stasis until or if it is resolved in the usual cadential way.

[Pabmusic]

... What I want to know is whether they are generally now considered as absolute, or whether they are relative to a key or tonic centre.

What I mean here is if we take an accepted pattern of modes - Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian, are these always related to a tonic on C (or approximately there - allowing for tuning variations), or does it make sense to talk about E:Ionian or E: Phrygian, for example - which would have the notes E - Fsharp - Gsharp - A - B - Csharp and Dsharp and then G sharp - A - B - Csharp - D sharp - Gsharp - F sharp - Gsharp respectively?

The simple answer is no - modes needn't be related to a fixed point. The opening bars of RVW's Pastoral Symphony are in (effectively) a mixolydian mode with a nudge into dorian when flutes and clarinets take over, all based around G.

Folk-singers (not only in English-speaking places - this apples equally to Bartok's researches) used modes very freely - and very naturally, too. Some tunes would switch modes for a line or two.

But there might be musical 'grammar police' who would insist I'm wrong (and I would be perhaps if I were talking about ecclesiastical music of a much earlier time). In art there are generally no rules other than those which appeal to the artist at the time. 'Rules' are usually descriptive rather than prescriptive (or proscriptive come to that).

[Joseph K]

Now I'm not an expert on the nuts and bolts of jazz, but I always thought the "modal jazz" concept derived from George Russell's theories which were highly influential on Miles, Coltrane and many others. As I understand it his "Lydian Chromatic Concept" is based on taking the circle of fifths as the basis of this approach to tonal harmony, and it's so named because the first seven elements in a circle of fifths, when compressed into an octave, produce a Lydian mode.

Indeed. Perhaps 'vague' was a wrong word - 'overly broad' might be better.

I am familiar with the tenor of this book, but I looked on the wiki article about it and discovered this:

'In arguably his most famous piece, "Giant Steps," Coltrane can be heard traveling through a succession of three parent Lydian Chromatic scales: C Lydian, A♭ Lydian, and E Lydian.'

Now see what I said in 1130 about how, regardless of how fast the harmonic rhythm of a tune might be a player still might regard it modally - even though, as is the case with Giant Steps, it might not be thought of as an example of modal jazz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_Chromatic_Concept_of_Tonal_Organization

[Dave2002]

Let's not forget Messiaen's modes of limited transposition.

That is an interesting, and perhaps helpful concept to "not forget". Similar ideas can be applied when trying to develop a tone row for use in a 12 tone composition.

[Richard Barrett]

Let's not forget Messiaen's modes of limited transposition.

... and, going in the opposite direction as it were, Xenakis's non-octavating modes, where the modulus of intervallic repetition isn't a factor of an octave. These can be heard in many of his works, like the 1977 orchestral work Jonchaies which uses a mode whose intervals repeat every 17 semitones (an octave plus a fourth).

There's a fundamental difference between a mode and a series, by the way, summed up in the distinction made by Xenakis between "in-time" and "outside-time" structures, namely that a mode is an unordered set of pitches while in a series the set involves a specific order (hence the title of Messiaen's Mode de valeurs et d'intensités which inspired the concept of integral serialism while not actually itself being serial).