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  • amateur51

    Originally posted by EnemyoftheStoat View Post
    As the Parisians call the coffee shop chain.


    Lovely if expensive sourdough bread too

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    • Roehre

      Originally posted by Bryn View Post
      But Maxwell is not part of his surname. It is one of his forenames (his middle name). Do you file Harrison Birtwistle under "P"? "Paul" is, after all, a perfectly good surname, e.g. Les Paul.
      No, as I even didn't know Birtwistle's middle name .
      But on the continent e.g. Harrison Paul Birtwistle is Birtwistle and Peter Maxwell Davies is Maxwell Davies.

      Comment

      • Sir Velo
        Full Member
        • Oct 2012
        • 3229

        Originally posted by Roehre View Post
        No, as I even didn't know Birtwistle's middle name .
        But on the continent e.g. Harrison Paul Birtwistle is Birtwistle and Peter Maxwell Davies is Maxwell Davies.
        So presumably Bernd Alois Zimmermann goes under "A" in your collection; Hans Werner Henze under "W" and you'd file John Eliot Gardiner under "E" when arranging works by conductor?

        Comment

        • french frank
          Administrator/Moderator
          • Feb 2007
          • 30300

          Originally posted by Roehre View Post
          Mine are under "M", as Maxwell is a perfect surname, contrary to Amadeus or Harry.
          Even in his day, he was known as 'Mozart' (the other one was called 'Leopold Mozart', filed under Mozart, L). In the case of Continongtals, the double-barrelled Christian names are more frequent, especially with Jean-Baptiste, François-Xavier, Johann Nepomuk &c (though I do cherish the memory of attending a Chelsea pary once where Stephen John was introduced to John Robert: SJ, this is JR, JR - SJ, rather than Steve, this is Johnny).

          If you're filing for yourself, no problem: you file it in how you are most likely to look for it, correct or incorrect.

          My difficulty is with titles. I have a reluctance to use a title until people have been deceased for some years, and not always then. Sir Thomas Beecham (or Beecham), but Max Davies (for clarity) and Birtwistle.

          If they're still alive I regard the name without the title as the 'professional' name. Emma Kirkby. John Eliot Gardner.
          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

          Comment

          • Roehre

            Originally posted by Sir Velo View Post
            So presumably Bernd Alois Zimmermann goes under "A" in your collection; Hans Werner Henze under "W" and you'd file John Eliot Gardiner under "E" when arranging works by conductor?
            Of course they are, as Beethoven is under Van as is usual under American alphabetical convention of foreign names, Haydn under Joseph as that's his middle name and Schubert under the P from Peter.
            And I don't do conductors in my files as I am interested in Beethoven's ninth and not in Karajan's or whoever is the guy possibly in charge of the orchestra, so no mention of JEG at all, not under Elliot nor Gardiner.

            I do think this reaction of Sir Velo's is the kind which might be make reconsidering contributing here.

            Comment

            • Ferretfancy
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 3487

              Shouldn't all this be in Pedants Paradise ?

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              • amateur51

                Originally posted by Ferretfancy View Post
                Shouldn't all this be in Pedants Paradise ?

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                • cloughie
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 22126

                  Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                  Quite; but why? Did "Davies" not sound remarkable enough at the start of his career. And why just him? Mozart is never filed under "A", no matter how "pleasurable, rhythmically, syllabically [?] and sonorously ... richly layered" some people find the name he never used.


                  Again, Why? Is it just good old-fashioned English snobbery?


                  Lutos said something very similar to me in one of our conversations.
                  There are/were a few Davis and Davies in the music world - Colin, Andrew, Carl, Meredith so maybe he wanted to stand out.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37689

                    Does anyone know if there exists an "authoritative" listing for Havergal Brian's symphonies?

                    The reason for my asking is that I have taped recordings from BBC broadcasts at various points over time, from about 1967, and in many cases of listening these do not appear to accord with the numbered symphonies as referred to in Simpson's "The Symphony". I do know that at least one re-numbering has been undertaken. I'd like if possible to get the numbering and dates of composition right for my filing system.

                    Comment

                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30300

                      Who's Who has him listed as Maxwell Davies, Sir Peter. Usually the articles are drawn up and verified by the subjects themselves, which suggests that that is how he prefers to be listed. But it's a free world - people may do as they wish ...

                      (It's Musical Pedants' Paradise)
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • Roehre

                        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                        Does anyone know if there exists an "authoritative" listing for Havergal Brian's symphonies?

                        The reason for my asking is that I have taped recordings from BBC broadcasts at various points over time, from about 1967, and in many cases of listening these do not appear to accord with the numbered symphonies as referred to in Simpson's "The Symphony". I do know that at least one re-numbering has been undertaken. I'd like if possible to get the numbering and dates of composition right for my filing system.
                        .

                        Whether it is or isn't an "authorative" list, I don't know (though I suspect it actually is, and use it as such):
                        M.MacDonald The Symphonies of Havergal Brian, 3 vols (1974, 1978 and 1983), which AFAIK is used by the HBsociety in its Newsletter (since 1975)

                        M. MacDonald: "The symphonies of Havergal Brian. Volume 1: Symphonies 1-12". Kahn and Averill, London (1974), ISBN 0 900707 28 3
                        M. MacDonald: "The symphonies of Havergal Brian. Volume 2: Symphonies 13-29". Kahn and Averill, London (1978), ISBN 0 900707 43 7
                        M. MacDonald: "The symphonies of Havergal Brian. Volume 3: Symphonies 30-22, survey and summing up". Kahn and Averill, London (1983), ISBN 0-8008-7530-3

                        Comment

                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37689

                          Originally posted by Roehre View Post
                          Whether it is or isn't an "authorative" list, I don't know (though I suspect it actually is, and use it as such):
                          M.MacDonald The Symphonies of Havergal Brian, 3 vols (1974, 1978 and 1983), which AFAIK is used by the HBsociety in its Newsletter (since 1975)

                          M. MacDonald: "The symphonies of Havergal Brian. Volume 1: Symphonies 1-12". Kahn and Averill, London (1974), ISBN 0 900707 28 3
                          M. MacDonald: "The symphonies of Havergal Brian. Volume 2: Symphonies 13-29". Kahn and Averill, London (1978), ISBN 0 900707 43 7
                          M. MacDonald: "The symphonies of Havergal Brian. Volume 3: Symphonies 30-22, survey and summing up". Kahn and Averill, London (1983), ISBN 0-8008-7530-3
                          Thanks a lot, Roehr.

                          Comment

                          • EdgeleyRob
                            Guest
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 12180

                            Roehre (post #87).

                            Fascinating subject this.

                            Silly question time,are KV (köchel verzeichnis) and K numbers one and the same ?

                            Comment

                            • french frank
                              Administrator/Moderator
                              • Feb 2007
                              • 30300

                              Originally posted by EdgeleyRob View Post
                              Silly question time,are KV (köchel verzeichnis) and K numbers one and the same ?
                              Yes.
                              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                              Comment

                              • EdgeleyRob
                                Guest
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 12180

                                Thanks ff

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