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  • Richard Barrett
    Guest
    • Jan 2016
    • 6259

    Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
    Late 18th and most 19th Century Music makes great use of Perfect Cadences - often a the expense of the other types. For an example of a Symphonic Movement that ends with a Plagal Cadence (in this case, F major to C major) there's the First Movement of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique or (for a louder example) the end of the First Movement of Sibelius' Third. (The very first cadence in that work, when the brass gently join the opening 'celli & Basses, is also a Plagal Cadence.)

    The Finale of Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings has a blatant Imperfect Cadence - where the Final melody comes to a halt, and the very opening of the first Movement reappears. The end of the first song in Schumann's cummings ist der Dichterliebe ("Im wunderschonen monat Mai" also ends with an Imperfect Cadence.
    And you have the Phrygian cadence between the two movements of the Third Brandenburg Concerto, that's an easy one to spot.

    Comment

    • jayne lee wilson
      Banned
      • Jul 2011
      • 10711

      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
      Oh yes, sorry about that - (I don't have German and was going on failing memory) - thanks Bryn for the correction.
      Years back, I actually heard Boulez in conversation on Radio 3 confirm this - his reply about the title was "I don't know yet, but Cummings is the Poet.."

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      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
        Gone fishin'
        • Sep 2011
        • 30163

        Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
        And you have the Phrygian cadence between the two movements of the Third Brandenburg Concerto, that's an easy one to spot.
        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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        • Eine Alpensinfonie
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 20570

          Re Plagal cadences, I challenge anyone to harmonise Good King Wenceslas without any parallel/consecutive octaves.

          Comment

          • Richard Barrett
            Guest
            • Jan 2016
            • 6259

            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
            Re Plagal cadences, I challenge anyone to harmonise Good King Wenceslas without any parallel/consecutive octaves.
            Not a problem! (if it's allowed to be atonal)

            Comment

            • Serial_Apologist
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 37594

              Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
              Not nearly as easy as I'd presumed - composers tend to play with conventions rather than provide clear examples of them! (So inconsiderate! ) But the famous Chorale setting of "Erkenne mich, mein huter" ("O Sacred Head Sore Wounded") from the St Matthew Passion gives some examples.

              Bach, BWV, 244, Matthäus, Matthaeus, Matthew, Passion, oratorio, choir, Бах, страсти, по, Матфею


              With Chorales, the ends of phrases are shown by fermatas ("pause marks" as they became, but weren't intended as such in this context during Bach's time). Here, the first Cadence occurs in the second bar, at the word "huter". It's a Perfect cadence, Dominant to Tonic (B major to E major).

              There's another Perfect cadence two bars later, at "mich an" - but this time in a different key (G# major to C#minor).

              The next four bars (up to "Guts getan") are a literal repeat of the first four bars of Music (with different words) so the next Cadence is in Bar 10, at "gelabet": this is a Plagal Cadence (Subdominant to Tonic): A major to E major.

              In bar 12 (the second bar of the last system/line) at "susser Kost", the cadence ends on C# major - which sounds "incomplete", because it's the Dominant chord of F# (as if he's starting to modulate to that key, but doesn't get there). A Cadence that ends on a Dominant chord is an Imperfect Cadence.

              Instead of modulating to F#, Bach immediately turns the expected chord of F# into an F#7 chord (F# A# C# E) which he sustains throughout the next phrase which ends (at "begabet") on a Perfect Cadence (F# major - B major) in B major. This B major chord is itself the Dominant of the Home Key of E major, with which the chorale ends with a perfect cadence.



              [The only Cadence not used in this Chorale is the Interrupted Cadence, which is when a Dominant Chord - which we expect to move back to the Tonic chord - moves instead to a different chord, almost always the submediant. In E major, a simple Interrupted Cadence would be B major to C# minor - which doesn't happen here. BUT in bar 4, the cadence does end on a C# minor chord. What Bach is doing is enhancing what otherwise would have been a straightforward Interrupted Cadence - if he'd used a simple Dominant to submediant chord progression in E major - by replacing the more ordinary B major chord (on the word "mich") with G# major. Even in "simple" harmonizations of hymn tunes, Bach uncovers a rich seam of harmonic and tonal possibilities.]
              Thanks ever so much for offering such clear explanations, which are truly your forte, ferney - I hadn't known previously what a Plagal cadence was! It's wonderful to realise that there are names to be given to all the fruitless harmonic meanderings I've spent all these years doing at the piano!

              Comment

              • jean
                Late member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7100

                Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                ..."As for your work, Cummings ist der dichter ..."
                Shouldn't that be "cummings ist der Dichter ..." ?

                Comment

                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  Originally posted by jean View Post
                  Shouldn't that be "cummings ist der Dichter ..." ?
                  The title of Boulez' work is Cummings ist der Dichter:



                  ... but you're right to point out that the secretary's letter (as quoted in the Boulez/Deliege book) used a capital letter on "Dichter".
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37594

                    Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                    The title of Boulez' work is Cummings ist der Dichter:



                    ... but you're right to point out that the secretary's letter (as quoted in the Boulez/Deliege book) used a capital letter on "Dichter".
                    I understand that German nouns require a capital letter: in this instance that wouldn't necessarily apply to a poet or anyone else who preferred not to have their name capitalised; but it's a funny old world, innit!

                    Comment

                    • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                      Gone fishin'
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 30163

                      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                      I understand that German nouns require a capital letter: in this instance that wouldn't necessarily apply to a poet or anyone else who preferred not to have their name capitalised; but it's a funny old world, innit!
                      - the "error" in this instance supposedly originates in a letter from a secretary at Universal Edition, who might not have been aware of mr cummings' preference. The lack of the capital D in my original is entirely my own haste - in that discussion of the work's title, Boulez refers to "Cummings is the poet", and I just transferred the anglophile lower-case noun.
                      [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                      • Joseph K
                        Banned
                        • Oct 2017
                        • 7765

                        Worth bearing in mind - and this I know from looking at their better, more advanced harmony texts - America has different terminology for cadences, e.g. a perfect cadence is called an authentic cadence, which itself is either perfect or imperfect according whether the top voice rises from 7 to 1.

                        Comment

                        • jean
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 7100

                          I've probably asked this before.

                          With our tradional, Western division of the octave into twelve semitones comes a difficulty in tuning the smaller intervals.

                          If we had chosen instead a larger number of stopping points on our way to the upper octave, could we have avoided uncomfotable compromises like equal temperament?

                          Comment

                          • MrGongGong
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 18357

                            Originally posted by jean View Post
                            I've probably asked this before.

                            With our tradional, Western division of the octave into twelve semitones comes a difficulty in tuning the smaller intervals.

                            If we had chosen instead a larger number of stopping points on our way to the upper octave, could we have avoided uncomfotable compromises like equal temperament?
                            Harry Partch lives

                            I think (and i'm no expert) it's only "uncomfortable" in relation to expectations?

                            Comment

                            • jean
                              Late member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 7100

                              I agree that most of us have come to expect the compromises of equal temperament, certainly not to find them unbearable.

                              But that doesn't answer my question.

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