Musical questions and answers thread

[ahinton]

It can be, and was in Schoenberg's original formulation, but so of course can tonality. It can also (like tonality) be a complexly-interconnected universe of musical relationships on many different levels, as for example in something like Stockhausen's Klavierstück X, and maybe I should add for the doubters that yes, you can hear this, although it might not be that easy to be analytically precise about what you hear, any more than it is in late 19th century tonal music (or Strauss!).

Hear, hear!

[amateur51]

Typical - using any excuse to promote Inversion on the Radio 3 Forum.

[amateur51]

No it's what used to be called six of the best before caning was abolished.

Caning's been abolished?

That'll cause ructions over on The Choir, I bet

[ahinton]

No it's what used to be called six of the best before caning was abolished.

I've never previously heard Les Six so described; one learns something new every day!

[Alison]

New question: Symphonies of the classical era often start with a slow brooding introduction followed by a joyous allegro: Where and when did this musical idea originate ?

[clive heath]

Dawn?

[MrGongGong]

But not even as useful as diminished sevenths (ie: rootless dominant minor ninths).

I guess you are a silent film pianist ?

[LeMartinPecheur]

New question: Symphonies of the classical era often start with a slow brooding introduction followed by a joyous allegro: Where and when did this musical idea originate ?

Could it conceivably derive ultimately from the slow-fast-slow-fast sonata da chiesa form which was still being followed in early(-ish) classical symphonies, e.g Haydn 5, 11, 22, 45, 49, 50? His 6 (Le Matin) and 7 (Le Midi), both 1761, are his earliest where the 1st movt has a linked slow intro. But then again 15/I is adagio-presto-adagio!

I'm guessing that since Symph's 6-8 were his first written for his new employer, they must have followed current models that were sure to appeal to Prince Esterhazy, but I'd be very interested to know whose these models would have been.

Mozart waited till #36 (Linz) of 1783 for his first symphony with a slow intro...

[Pabmusic]

New question: Symphonies of the classical era often start with a slow brooding introduction followed by a joyous allegro: Where and when did this musical idea originate ?

Probably the major influence was what is called the French overture. I'm pretty sure that originated with Lully in the mid-17th Century. It's the 'typical' baroque form of a slow first section contrasted with a fast second section (and it was often extended to repeat the slow first section - slow-fast-slow). This shouldn't be confused with the rival Italian overture, whose form became fast-slow-fast.

There are hundreds (probably thousands) of examples of 'French' and 'Italian' overtures by Baroque and early Classical composers, and you can see how they both contributed to the rise of the symphony. For instance, from the Italian you get a form (often called 'sinfonia') that can become three separate movements, with a slow movement second. Add the slow first section of the French overture to the Italian sinfonia and you have a slow introduction. Then add in a movement or two from the 'dance suite' - such as a minuet - and you have a four-movement work with a slow introduction.

A grand example of a Baroque dance suite might be Handel's Music for the Royal Fireworks. The overture is in fact a French one, though extended by repeating the fast sections and adding a new slow section in the middle (slow-fast-slow-fast) - rather as if Handel has incorporated ideas from the Italian overture into a French one. It's then followed by dance movements (a bourée, a sicilliano and minuets, and the joyful allegro, La Réjouissance). Drop the bourée and perform in the order Overture, La Paix (sicilliano), Minuets and La Réjouissance and you get something that's not a million miles from an early classical symphony.

[Pabmusic]

I guess you are a silent film pianist ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Pabs' #429 gives the answer that I would have offered, but better than I would have put it.


As an aside - it often occurs to my idle moments that the opening five bars of the Shostakovich Fifth Symphony might have originated in a Neo-Classical Suite (possibly for piano: it "lies" under the hands very well) beginning with a French Overture.


I have some very idle moments: I should stay in more.

[Pabmusic]

Pabs' #429 gives the answer that I would have offered, but better than I would have put it.


As an aside - it often occurs to my idle moments that the opening five bars of the Shostakovich Fifth Symphony might have originated in a Neo-Classical Suite (possibly for piano: it "lies" under the hands very well) beginning with a French Overture.


I have some very idle moments: I should stay in more.

Oooh you flatterer!

I see what you mean about Shostakovtch 5 - that had never occurred to me.

[Richard Barrett]

then again 15/I is adagio-presto-adagio!

A particular admirer of Haydn's "early" symphonies writes: 15/I is as far as I know as close as Haydn ever got to a French overture.

Regarding the origins of the French overture style, it was indeed first developed by Lully in the 1650s as an introductory piece for his ballets de cour. But actually French overtures weren't really "slow and brooding" in the way that Haydn and Mozart later took up; plus they almost always ended with a (sometimes truncated) reprise of the slow section, which doesn't tend to happen in Classical-period symphonies. I would think that at least an equal influence on Haydn in his earlier years (for example when the symphonies 6-8 were written) would have come from folk music. Slow-fast pairs of dance movements, for example, are extremely common in the Hungarian folk music he (and his audiences) would have known, as in the verbunkos which was a popular dance form in the late 18th century, and in general the form of "slow introduction followed by more rhythmically-defined music" is a constant feature across many musical cultures.

[teamsaint]

A particular admirer of Haydn's "early" symphonies writes: 15/I is as far as I know as close as Haydn ever got to a French overture.

Regarding the origins of the French overture style, it was indeed first developed by Lully in the 1650s as an introductory piece for his ballets de cour. But actually French overtures weren't really "slow and brooding" in the way that Haydn and Mozart later took up; plus they almost always ended with a (sometimes truncated) reprise of the slow section, which doesn't tend to happen in Classical-period symphonies. I would think that at least an equal influence on Haydn in his earlier years (for example when the symphonies 6-8 were written) would have come from folk music. Slow-fast pairs of dance movements, for example, are extremely common in the Hungarian folk music he (and his audiences) would have known, as in the verbunkos which was a popular dance form in the late 18th century, and in general the form of "slow introduction followed by more rhythmically-defined music" is a constant feature across many musical cultures.

very interesting, RB, thanks.

I wonder if you could point towards some reading around the subject of connections between Baroque and classical era music, and contemporaneous folk music and forms?

[Richard Barrett]

I wonder if you could point towards some reading around the subject of connections between Baroque and classical era music, and contemporaneous folk music and forms?

I'm not sure I can really, I don't know of any publications that deal exclusively with the folk music connection for example, though for example Steven Zohn's book on Telemann has a long chapter on his and his contemporaries' interest in forms and materials from folk music, and I remember there being an interesting section on folk music in the OUP Companion to Haydn. If anything else springs to mind I'll let you know, but my previous observation was more the result of piecing together many little ideas from here and there, and of listening as much as reading.