Musical questions and answers thread

[DracoM]

Got to say that most of the rock/jazz bassists I have played with stand on the singer's / band's RIGHT. Erm.............??

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

All this is true except that it is also theoretically possible to play a triple stopped chord where the outer strings used are open ones and the note played on the string in between them is in a high position, although this is unlikely to be called for.

Ah! So that the middle, stopped string is pushed down, putting on a level with the other two? So on a violin, there could be a third inversion dominat seventh on A, with the open G and A strings, and the D string providing the C# higher than the A string?


Then there was the special bow that was created (in the 60s, IIRC) with loose hair (I know the feeling) that could stroke all four strings if required, so that the performer could play the Bach solo works as chords. There is a recording - it sounds an electronic organ (but this just might be the performaer's fault). And the astonishing two-bow system developed by 'cellist Frances-Marie Uitti - the right hand holds two bows simultaneously, one in the usual position playing the middle two strings, the other upside-down and under the strings, playing the top and bottom strings. What might sound like a party trick of limited Musical value is belied by the quality both of her own works (written and improvised) and of those written for her by Jonathan Harvey, Richard Barrett and others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcwfYjod-8Q

[Richard Barrett]

So that the middle, stopped string is pushed down, putting on a level with the other two? So on a violin, there could be a third inversion dominat seventh on A, with the open G and A strings, and the D string providing the C# higher than the A string?

The outer strings of such a triple-stop could also be alternating between open strings and natural harmonics, as featured here for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ysfEqjbCI - between about 4'00" and 5'30".

[teamsaint]

Not a subject I've researched, but the Beatles' bassist usually stood on the singer's right, IIRC. Being left handed, the neck of PM's guitar stuck out to the right. He had to, in order to sing into the same microphone as John Lennon, without their guitars colliding. It helped give the Beatles their pleasingly symmetrical appearance.

Fair enough. Just saw a quote that said he stood on the left.

[teamsaint]

Got to say that most of the rock/jazz bassists I have played with stand on the singer's / band's RIGHT. Erm.............??

Either a statistical anomoly, or your singers were the wrong way round perhaps !

[John Wright]

Because of the curved bridge, the lower note/two notes are played first and the top two sustained: the chord is "spread" or "arpeggiated" rather than played as a true chord as it would on the piano.

All four strings can be played together, here's Jack Payne's band, watch from 2:40s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l7KDfNAiII

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

May I just add that some composers don't even know what they want!

That's been my experience, when arranging/proof-reading/orchestrating/emanuensing. Invariably, they just say, "get on with it".

A few years ago, I had done some orchestration without many hints of what was required, but when the composer liked the result, he talked about "how carefully he had orchestrated it". For contractual reasons, I can't say more, but…. and

[EdgeleyRob]

Thanks again ferney.

a third inversion dominat seventh on A, with the open G and A strings, and the D string providing the C# higher than the A string?

Ah,erm,not read up on these yet.

[kea]

Ah,erm,not read up on these yet.

translation: if you put the middle finger of your left hand down on the second string from the left about four inches higher than you normally would, you can get a chord you will rarely ever need to play (as the bottom note is dissonant relative to the rest of the chord, and needs to resolve down, to a note you don't have on your instrument).
>.>

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah,erm,not read up on these yet.

Well - it might've helped if I'd written "Dominant seventh"! If you can get to a (piano-type) keyboard, this is dead easy to illustrate. The black keys are arranged in groups of two and threes - choose any of the group of three (not too low down - they sound a bit grumpy there) and play the white key that's in between the first two of the black keys - that's a G. Now, ignore all the black notes and play every other white key three more times. You get G B D and F. This is a dominant seventh chord*. This is its basic version, called "root position". If you stop playing the bottom G and instead play the octave higher (it's still the white key between the first two black keys in a group of three: you've just moved further to the right of the keyboard), you've got B D F G (the last two notes are next to each other [with a black key - which you're not playing! - in between] unlike the others which are next door but one). This is a Dominant Seventh in first inversion. Now take away the bottom note (B) and play that an octave higher - so it's next door but one to the G you've just found - and you've got D F G B. This is a dominant seventh in second inversion. Lastly, stop playing the low D and put that up an octave (D is always the white note in the middle of the two black keys) , so you have F G B D - a dominant seventh in third inversion. Which is as far as it goes - if you stick the bottom F up an octave, you're back to the same pattern you had at the beginning - G B D F - so it's back to Root position.

There are twelve such chords - one for each of the twelve notes of the chromatic scale (but not as easy to find for the non-keyboard player). And very strictly speaking, * = they're really only Dominant sevenths if they're used in the key a fifth lower than the root (so G B D F is the Dominant seventh of C major/minor) - but, as this is the starter pack, you don't need to worry about that yet.

The notes can be spread around as much as a composer wants and the performer can cope with, by the way. But if the very lowest note heard is a D, it's in second inversion; if B, first inversion,; if F, third inversion; and if G, then it's in Root position.

[EdgeleyRob]

ferney and kea,yet again thanks for taking the time and troube,really appreciated.
Might have to re-read your last post a couple of times ferney,incredible knowledge.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well - it might've helped if I'd written "Dominant seventh"! If you can get to a (piano-type) keyboard, this is dead easy to illustrate. The black keys are arranged in groups of two and threes - choose any of the group of three (not too low down - they sound a bit grumpy there) and play the white key that's in between the first two of the black keys - that's a G. Now, ignore all the black notes and play every other white key three more times. You get G B D and F. This is a dominant seventh chord*. This is its basic version, called "root position". If you stop playing the bottom G and instead play the octave higher (it's still the white key between the first two black keys in a group of three: you've just moved further to the right of the keyboard), you've got B D F G (the last two notes are next to each other [with a black key - which you're not playing! - in between] unlike the others which are next door but one). This is a Dominant Seventh in first inversion. Now take away the bottom note (B) and play that an octave higher - so it's next door but one to the G you've just found - and you've got D F G B. This is a dominant seventh in second inversion. Lastly, stop playing the low D and put that up an octave (D is always the white note in the middle of the two black keys) , so you have F G B D - a dominant seventh in third inversion. Which is as far as it goes - if you stick the bottom F up an octave, you're back to the same pattern you had at the beginning - G B D F - so it's back to Root position.

There are twelve such chords - one for each of the twelve notes of the chromatic scale (but not as easy to find for the non-keyboard player). And very strictly speaking, * = they're really only Dominant sevenths if they're used in the key a fifth lower than the root (so G B D F is the Dominant seventh of C major/minor) - but, as this is the starter pack, you don't need to worry about that yet.

The notes can be spread around as much as a composer wants and the performer can cope with, by the way. But if the very lowest note heard is a D, it's in second inversion; if B, first inversion,; if F, third inversion; and if G, then it's in Root position.

The interesting thing about dominant sevenths is that they are useful in all inversions, whilst major and minor chords have very limited use in their second inversions.

[Pabmusic]

The interesting thing about dominant sevenths is that they are useful in all inversions, whilst major and minor chords have very limited use in their second inversions.

But not even as useful as diminished sevenths (ie: rootless dominant minor ninths).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The interesting thing about dominant sevenths is that they are useful in all inversions, whilst major and minor chords have very limited use in their second inversions.

Yes - triads in second inversion seem to take their "identity" from the bass note, so a C major triad in second inversion (with G in the Bass) can sound like a G major chord with a double suspension or appoggiatura over the "root". This is the basis of the Ic - V - I cadence.

Seventh and Ninth chords, being less "secure", if you like, work very well in all inversions - as they're dissonances already, the inversion has less of an effect on their "identity".


Incidentally, Rob, all these matters are regular, common events that happen all over the place in much of the Music that's played and heard - it's very easy to demonstrate to people if there's a handy piano. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is when you have to use words to describe what's going on, and without sound clips. It's like those old "O"-Level English Language Exam tasks - "Write a Letter to a younger friend explaining in words how to make a Paper Aeroplane". (Or - and this was what I actually had to do, aged 16, in the sweaty rigours of an Exam. Room - "Write a detailed account explaining how someone should tie their shoelaces." )

[Serial_Apologist]

Well - it might've helped if I'd written "Dominant seventh"! If you can get to a (piano-type) keyboard, this is dead easy to illustrate. The black keys are arranged in groups of two and threes - choose any of the group of three (not too low down - they sound a bit grumpy there) and play the white key that's in between the first two of the black keys - that's a G. Now, ignore all the black notes and play every other white key three more times. You get G B D and F. This is a dominant seventh chord*. This is its basic version, called "root position". If you stop playing the bottom G and instead play the octave higher (it's still the white key between the first two black keys in a group of three: you've just moved further to the right of the keyboard), you've got B D F G (the last two notes are next to each other [with a black key - which you're not playing! - in between] unlike the others which are next door but one). This is a Dominant Seventh in first inversion. Now take away the bottom note (B) and play that an octave higher - so it's next door but one to the G you've just found - and you've got D F G B. This is a dominant seventh in second inversion. Lastly, stop playing the low D and put that up an octave (D is always the white note in the middle of the two black keys) , so you have F G B D - a dominant seventh in third inversion. Which is as far as it goes - if you stick the bottom F up an octave, you're back to the same pattern you had at the beginning - G B D F - so it's back to Root position.

There are twelve such chords - one for each of the twelve notes of the chromatic scale (but not as easy to find for the non-keyboard player). And very strictly speaking, * = they're really only Dominant sevenths if they're used in the key a fifth lower than the root (so G B D F is the Dominant seventh of C major/minor) - but, as this is the starter pack, you don't need to worry about that yet.

The notes can be spread around as much as a composer wants and the performer can cope with, by the way. But if the very lowest note heard is a D, it's in second inversion; if B, first inversion,; if F, third inversion; and if G, then it's in Root position.

Thanks very much, ferney, for patiently taking the time to explain chord inversions to a simpleton such as I. The jazz trumpet player Henry Lowther tried a couple of years ago, without success, but I knew it had something to do with shifting the same notes into a different order. I can see this is different from intervallic inversion - changing minor seconds into major sevenths, etc. Now, onto diminished chord inversions!