... they ordered these things better in 1555
Musical questions and answers thread
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostC flat major is B for god's sake! The next thing will be learning the scale of C double sharp!
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Originally posted by teamsaint View PostThe whole system was actually devised by tutors of grade 5 music theory, in order to help business.
This is a fact.
There is nothing "theoretical" about this - very often you can hear a singer singing "out-of-tune", but bash out the written note on the piano and s/he is "in tune" with it, but not with the Tonal acoustic of the melodic line of a piece. It's to attempt to accommodate real Tonal (and "tonal") differences onto the five lines of a staff that double sharps and flats are essential for instrumental and vocal lines. Even on Pianos, a modulation to G# major/minor in a piece in E major needs an F double sharp rather than G natural (as a Leading note) just as much as a modulation to G major/minor needs an F#, not a Gb. And a modulation back needs an F (single)# which would require a natural sign followed by a sharp sign to avoid uncertainty.[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
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Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostNot really - it's because keyboard instruments needed some form of Equal Temperament tuning so that they could approximate in Tonal Music to what Musical instruments and voices did "naturally" (well, after a couple of decades practice, at any rate). It's easy to forget, after hearing Magicians who can break the rules of Physics such as Kempff, Brendel, Barenboim, Gilels, Pace, Hodges etc etc, that the Piano is just a typewriter with attitude. In Ab minor, Cb is not the same as B natural (and, on real Musical instruments, B natural in G# minor doesn't sound "the same" as B natural in G major, and they both sound slightly different from the B natural in E major or the B natural in C major.
There is nothing "theoretical" about this - very often you can hear a singer singing "out-of-tune", but bash out the written note on the piano and s/he is "in tune" with it, but not with the Tonal acoustic of the melodic line of a piece. It's to attempt to accommodate real Tonal (and "tonal") differences onto the five lines of a staff that double sharps and flats are essential for instrumental and vocal lines. Even on Pianos, a modulation to G# major/minor in a piece in E major needs an F double sharp rather than G natural (as a Leading note) just as much as a modulation to G major/minor needs an F#, not a Gb. And a modulation back needs an F (single)# which would require a natural sign followed by a sharp sign to avoid uncertainty.
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Don Petter
Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostI guess I'll just have to go along with this longstanding practice, even while knowing that a good old natural on the score would make a piece much easier to sightread than a double sharp or flat, without in the final analysis in any way altering its sound.
This at least fits in with modern phraseology.
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Richard Barrett
Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostI guess I'll just have to go along with this longstanding practice, even while knowing that a good old natural on the score would make a piece much easier to sightread than a double sharp or flat, without in the final analysis in any way altering its sound.
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Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostBut actually, within a tonal context, the double accidentals make things easier to understand in terms of modulations and of the structure of the music. The key of C flat major might be the same as the key of B major when viewed in isolation, but when viewed in the context of a more extended tonal structure, which in practice any key always is, it's understood as a different thing, since musical structures consist not only of sounds but of relationships between sounds. The relationships thus become easier to understand, and indeed probably to sightread, through the use of double accidentals.
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amateur51
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostBut actually, within a tonal context, the double accidentals make things easier to understand in terms of modulations and of the structure of the music. The key of C flat major might be the same as the key of B major when viewed in isolation, but when viewed in the context of a more extended tonal structure, which in practice any key always is, it's understood as a different thing, since musical structures consist not only of sounds but of relationships between sounds. The relationships thus become easier to understand, and indeed probably to sightread, through the use of double accidentals.
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Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostNot really - it's because keyboard instruments needed some form of Equal Temperament tuning so that they could approximate in Tonal Music to what Musical instruments and voices did "naturally" (well, after a couple of decades practice, at any rate). It's easy to forget, after hearing Magicians who can break the rules of Physics such as Kempff, Brendel, Barenboim, Gilels, Pace, Hodges etc etc, that the Piano is just a typewriter with attitude. In Ab minor, Cb is not the same as B natural (and, on real Musical instruments, B natural in G# minor doesn't sound "the same" as B natural in G major, and they both sound slightly different from the B natural in E major or the B natural in C major.
There is nothing "theoretical" about this - very often you can hear a singer singing "out-of-tune", but bash out the written note on the piano and s/he is "in tune" with it, but not with the Tonal acoustic of the melodic line of a piece. It's to attempt to accommodate real Tonal (and "tonal") differences onto the five lines of a staff that double sharps and flats are essential for instrumental and vocal lines. Even on Pianos, a modulation to G# major/minor in a piece in E major needs an F double sharp rather than G natural (as a Leading note) just as much as a modulation to G major/minor needs an F#, not a Gb. And a modulation back needs an F (single)# which would require a natural sign followed by a sharp sign to avoid uncertainty.
However you'll have to bear with me as I am new to this music theory malarkey,so there could be a few silly questions coming your way.
So a B double flat and an A natural would sound the same on say, a Piano,but not as a sung note,or maybe on a violin ??
And what about this beast
Me learning to play the Piano one day seems a million miles away since I started reading up on this kind of stuff.
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