Tchaikovsky - time to rehabilitate?

[visualnickmos]

You mean Stolichnaya and caviar I presume.

I might well mean that! Подлинный русский - это то, что я имел в виду!

[richardfinegold]

It's hilarious that some people who condemn string vibrato in 19th century music, actually think it's great when the French horn players use it.

[richardfinegold]

Completely. Those Mravinsky recordings are the sound of Tchaikovsky as far as I'm concerned. Too often his music is made to sound like confectionery. (Although of course some of it really is!)

Tchaikovsky was criticized by 'the mighty handful' for being to 'Western' in his outlook. Perhaps an Orchestra of saxophone players was the ideal of Ceaser Cui. I have trouble believing that the man who wrote the French Horn parts for Waltz of The Flowers, or the opening of the second movement of the 5th Symphony envisioned hearing these tunes played on a souped up kazoo. . We can never know for sure, of course.

[Richard Barrett]

I have trouble believing that the man who wrote the French Horn parts for Waltz of The Flowers, or the opening of the second movement of the 5th Symphony envisioned hearing these tunes played on a souped up kazoo.

Me too.

This is exactly what I'm saying about standardisation of orchestral sounds - an instrument that doesn't conform to the norm is regarded as not even a real instrument. You don't have to listen to it if you prefer the one-size-fits-all version of course, but these were the kinds of sound Tchaikovsky wrote for, however "Western" his attitudes - and of course Western orchestras of his time sounded very different from one another and from the way they do now, and you might well regard their sounds also as issuing from toys!

[Alain Maréchal]

....and the French did it in the 60s when the Orchestre de Paris was fomed, adopting an international sound.

I was there, I remember it well. I regretted the passing of the Conservatoire sound. Munch was only director for a few months before he died and the OdeP has subsequently never had a French principal conductor.

[cloughie]

Me too.

This is exactly what I'm saying about standardisation of orchestral sounds - an instrument that doesn't conform to the norm is regarded as not even a real instrument. You don't have to listen to it if you prefer the one-size-fits-all version of course, but these were the kinds of sound Tchaikovsky wrote for, however "Western" his attitudes - and of course Western orchestras of his time sounded very different from one another and from the way they do now, and you might well regard their sounds also as issuing from toys!

Now I am confused - the HIPP cause for authenticity, you seem to be saying that Tchaikovsky would have not liked the instruments of the day, but that was what he had and would not have had the current modern instruments. Maybe Bach would have scorned his keyboard works played on a modern Steinway grand or even a Hammond organ, or maybe he'd have thought 'heigh that's a bit different - I like it!' I'm not saying I want the PCO or 60s Russian sound on Tchaik 5 every time but now and then I like a fix of it!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Now I am confused - the HIPP cause for authenticity, you seem to be saying that Tchaikovsky would have not liked the instruments of the day, but that was what he had and would not have had the current modern instruments. Maybe Bach would have scorned his keyboard works played on a modern Steinway grand or even a Hammond organ, or maybe he'd have thought 'heigh that's a bit different - I like it!' I'm not saying I want the PCO or 60s Russian sound on Tchaik 5 every time but now and then I like a fix of it!

Oh, I read Richard (B)'s post as saying the exact opposite of that - in contrast to richardf's preference for the "one-size-fits-all" sound, and his consequent dismissal of the Russian sound as being "kazoo"-esque.

[cloughie]

Oh, I read Richard (B)'s post as saying the exact opposite of that - in contrast to richardf's preference for the "one-size-fits-all" sound, and his consequent dismissal of the Russian sound as being "kazoo"-esque.

I said I was confused...

[Richard Barrett]

Oh, I read Richard (B)'s post as saying the exact opposite of that - in contrast to richardf's preference for the "one-size-fits-all" sound, and his consequent dismissal of the Russian sound as being "kazoo"-esque.

Quite. I thought I was being clear...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Quite. I thought I was being clear...

Perhaps the ironic "Me, too" suggested that you were agreeing with the spirit of rfg's Kazoo Komment, rather than the letter?

[Richard Barrett]

Perhaps the ironic "Me, too" suggested that you were agreeing with the spirit of rfg's Kazoo Komment, rather than the letter?

I suppose it could be interpreted in that way, but I thought I'd made my opinions on such matters fairly clear on this forum, ad nauseam some might say. Obviously I have to steup up the grandstanding!

[AjAjAjH]

Is there anyone else out there who loves the 3rd Symphony but looks in vain to see it scheduled for performance by the orchestra(s) they support?

I love Tchaikovsky and was thinking about performances of the 5th Symphony (my favourite) I have heard when I read of the death of Stanislaw Skrowszewski.

His performance was the most Barbaric I have heard. Rozhdestvensky the most Russian and Mark Elder the most English.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

His performance was the most Barbaric I have heard. Rozhdestvensky the most Russian and Mark Elder the most English.

In what way is it barbaric?

[cloughie]

Quite. I thought I was being clear...

a little muddy i'm afraid!!!!

[visualnickmos]

In what way is it barbaric?

...and what way is Elder's "the most English?" possibly that it sounds a little Elgarian? I can't really comment, as I've not heard it... just curious about the 'labels' - we are all guilty, I suppose!