'10 tips to becoming a conductor'

[french frank]

I'd ditch #4
Choosing to be ignorant of a huge part of music isn't good advice for anyone

There are objections to that: the problem is that young people become introduced to pop music at an age when they are not (yet) critical. Given that most of their peers will have no access to any music but pop music, peer pressure will be very influential at the most impressionable ages. It isn't a level playing field.

For those who remember Ludwig fan Beethoven (like Anna!), his view was that his children should be kept away from other children for as long as possible; he lived in Wild Wales and educated them all himself...

The only reservation I would have (about ignoring pop music) is that a lot of modern so-called 'classical' is influenced by (I suppose largely experimental/progressive) contemporary 'popular' music; and being unfamiliar with the general kind might prove a barrier to appreciating the more esoteric forms. But it might not.

[Rolmill]

Choosing to be ignorant of a huge part of music isn't good advice for anyone

I agree up to a point - making a deliberate choice at an early age to be interested in only a very limited range or type of music seems odd. However, there are so many types of music to be heard that it's not possible for most of us to spend much time on all of them, and I think it is perfectly logical to focus most time on the music that you find most rewarding. I find that I have done this myself in practice - not as a deliberate up-front lifestyle choice, more as a succession of specific choices when deciding what music to listen to/attend/participate in over time. I know that this has resulted in my being sadly ignorant of much other music (clearly demonstrated by reading these boards!) but I don't think this means those choices were necessarily wrong for me, or that my listening "range" hasn't developed over the years. But, like you, I certainly would never advise anyone never to listen to anything other than xxx type of music.

...have never knowingly listened to 'popular' music...

Surely this is impossible? It suggests that they don't do any shopping, go to pubs, eat in restaurants, watch television....'popular' music is unavoidable, so initial opinions can be formed without deliberate immersion IMO.

[ardcarp]

Given that most of their peers will have no access to any music but pop music, peer pressure will be very influential at the most impressionable ages. It isn't a level playing field.

That is the point. There is a strong case to be made that pop music should not be part of school music and should not be seen as 'a way in' to music by teachers. Kids will be exposed to it all the time out of school and indeed it probably has an anti-establishment value for them.

Most kids' only opportunity to have an acquaintance with classical music is via a school music teacher...and if they pass up that chance, all is lost for a whole generation.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There is a strong case to be made that pop music should not be part of school music and should not be seen as 'a way in' to music by teachers. Kids will be exposed to it all the time out of school and indeed it probably has an anti-establishment value for them.

I wouldn't call what you've described as "a strong case", ardie: education is/should be (at least in part) about allowing and enabling people (not just "kids") to become more aware of the world around them in order that they can become more fully involved in it (rather than a passive feeling that it merely "goes on around them".) To be "exposed" to commercial Musics is far from being educated/empowered: instead, it merely supports the idea that Music is something that other people do. It is because commercial Music is so prevalent that it needs to be "studied" - that's the beginnings of (self-)awareness, self-identification and genuinely critical use of listening and hearing.

Most kids' only opportunity to have an acquaintance with classical music is via a school music teacher...and if they pass up that chance, all is lost for a whole generation.

This is as true as it is for non-Western "classical" Musics, contemporary "classical" Musics, and "World" Musics (and Quantum Physics, the History of Australia, Jazz, Celtic literature, Logical Positivism, Sanskrit). I think that the real problem is that people (particularly politicians) confuse "schools" with "education" - that once you've reached sixteen/eighteen, "education" stops, which is true in many people's experience. As a result, too much emphasis is put on what happens in school, and every celebrity in his/her field can go on telly and declare their outrage that their particular interest isn't taught in school, with the result that pressure is put on schools to incorporate these topics. And, with limited time and resources, adequate teaching of all the topics is impossible (and those topics which don't have a sexy young(-ish) public spokesperson get neglected.

The age of the internet offers unparalleled opportunities for genuine public education, and the development of general understanding and appreciation. The role of "schools" for children will have to include the provision of a climate of curiosity and engagement that will encourage such lifelong development.

[MrGongGong]

There are objections to that: the problem is that young people become introduced to pop music at an age when they are not (yet) critical. Given that most of their peers will have no access to any music but pop music, peer pressure will be very influential at the most impressionable ages. It isn't a level playing field.

For those who remember Ludwig fan Beethoven (like Anna!), his view was that his children should be kept away from other children for as long as possible; he lived in Wild Wales and educated them all himself...

The only reservation I would have (about ignoring pop music) is that a lot of modern so-called 'classical' is influenced by (I suppose largely experimental/progressive) contemporary 'popular' music; and being unfamiliar with the general kind might prove a barrier to appreciating the more esoteric forms. But it might not.

It's not a problem to listen to all kinds of music
It is a problem when people suggest that some forms are intrinsically superior regardless of context
There is a problem when people think that music (as opposed to marketing) is fundamentally divided into 'pop', 'classical' etc etc
Young people have no problem in listening and embracing ALL kinds of music, the brain is remarkably able to cope without any problem at all
One purpose of education is to expose people to things that they wouldn't otherwise encounter, which might mean Bach or it could mean Metallica
To advocate ignorance as a means of developing ones skills as a musician is plain nonsense
I've had a very interesting conversation with Esa Pekka Salonen about 'Krautrock' , he doesn't seem to have lost his ability to be a musician by knowing about that ! (and many other musics)
Once we stop thinking that somehow there is a battle to try and win the young over to 'classical music' and relaxed a bit then we might actually learn something as well as communicate our own enthusiasm to others.

Most kids' only opportunity to have an acquaintance with classical music is via a school music teacher

These are obviously the 'kids' who never go to the cinema (or play computer games etc etc etc )

a lot of modern so-called 'classical' is influenced

It seemed to work for Mozart as well

What matters more IMV is the integrity and context of the music in question, I find it deeply sad that many folks are denied the opportunity to go and hear Hawkwind in a field full of sweaty people as well as Messiaen in a Cathedral late at night.

I find it sad when I work with music college students who seem to be totally unaware of the music around them, so for someone to get to the RAM as a postgraduate trumpet player and to ask me 'who is Miles Davis?' indicates something wrong

[french frank]

It's not a problem to listen to all kinds of music
It is a problem when people suggest that some forms are intrinsically superior regardless of context
There is a problem when people think that music (as opposed to marketing) is fundamentally divided into 'pop', 'classical' etc etc
Young people have no problem in listening and embracing ALL kinds of music, the brain is remarkably able to cope without any problem at all
One purpose of education is to expose people to things that they wouldn't otherwise encounter, which might mean Bach or it could mean Metallica
To advocate ignorance as a means of developing ones skills as a musician is plain nonsense
I've had a very interesting conversation with Esa Pekka Salonen about 'Krautrock' , he doesn't seem to have lost his ability to be a musician by knowing about that ! (and many other musics)
Once we stop thinking that somehow there is a battle to try and win the young over to 'classical music' and relaxed a bit then we might actually learn something as well as communicate our own enthusiasm to others.

Well, if I agree with ALL the points you make, perhaps you'd address the points I made.

[pastoralguy]

I find it sad when I work with music college students who seem to be totally unaware of the music around them, so for someone to get to the RAM as a postgraduate trumpet player and to ask me 'who is Miles Davis?' indicates something wrong

I had a fellow first study violin student who, in the 80's, had never heard of Yehudi Menuhin, David Oistrakh, Mr Heifetz or, shock horror, IDA HAENDEL!!

[MrGongGong]

Well, if I agree with ALL the points you make, perhaps you'd address the points I made.

OK

There are objections to that: the problem is that young people become introduced to pop music at an age when they are not (yet) critical.

I think that the development of critical listening is one of the things we should be encouraging. The problem IMV is not so much to do with musical style but more the idea that we listen in order to make a 'choice', we can simply listen to enjoy the act of listening rather than in order to try and 'judge' music.

Given that most of their peers will have no access to any music but pop music, peer pressure will be very influential at the most impressionable ages. It isn't a level playing field.

This does depend on what you mean by 'pop' music. Most of the music that is broadcast by commercial media etc is of a narrow range indeed BUT one doesn't address the issue of narrowness by making rules about what people have access to. Music has always been used as a social signifier, what I find encouraging about the young people I work with is that they can easily do this LESS than ever before. I remember working in some schools in Shetland where when asking the teenagers what music they were into (after us composing some things) they were mostly in Metal bands AND playing the fiddle. It's not 'instead of' but 'as well as'.

For those who remember Ludwig fan Beethoven (like Anna!), his view was that his children should be kept away from other children for as long as possible; he lived in Wild Wales and educated them all himself...

Having met some of these folks I would say that many of them are more than a little bonkers ! The child prodigy pianist I met last summer who wasn't allowed to listen to anything other than 'classical' music will soon turn into a teenager and tell their parents where to stick it (and quite right too )

The only reservation I would have (about ignoring pop music) is that a lot of modern so-called 'classical' is influenced by (I suppose largely experimental/progressive) contemporary 'popular' music; and being unfamiliar with the general kind might prove a barrier to appreciating the more esoteric forms. But it might not.

Music has always been full of cross fertilisation, sometimes in obvious ways (Stravinsky and Jazz etc ) and often in more subtle ways.
Personally I think there is too much emphasis in formal (school !) education on Songs, and not enough thinking about music in a wider way (which includes Bach as well as non Western musics and composition etc ) BUT the fact is that we live in a world where music is considered to have only ONE function i.e entertainment . Which is ok as far as it goes but there is much more to it than that.

[french frank]

This does depend on what you mean by 'pop' music.

In this specific context, I mean commercial pop of the kind they are mostly likely to hear if they listen to most commercial radio stations, watch the charts videos &c. 'Pop' in the sense of being 'popular with most younger audiences under the age of 35. And yes, it is narrow.

BUT one doesn't address the issue of narrowness by making rules about what people have access to.

Rules are effectively made, not by parents but by the market, both in the music-making and broadcasting.

Music has always been used as a social signifier, what I find encouraging about the young people I work with is that they can easily do this LESS than ever before. I remember working in some schools in Shetland where when asking the teenagers what music they were into (after us composing some things) they were mostly in Metal bands AND playing the fiddle. It's not 'instead of' but 'as well as'.

Excellent news. I will look out for all these young people when next at a chamber recital. So discouraging for the audience to be largely older people ...

Having met some of these folks I would say that many of them are more than a little bonkers ! The child prodigy pianist I met last summer who wasn't allowed to listen to anything other than 'classical' music will soon turn into a teenager and tell their parents where to stick it (and quite right too )

They may indeed be completely bonkers. But you are reinforcing the opposite view: the pressures to listen to ... popular ... music are irresistible. It doesn't work the other way round.

BUT the fact is that we live in a world where music is considered to have only ONE function i.e entertainment . Which is ok as far as it goes but there is much more to it than that.

Again, I agree with you. BUT the fact also is that the vast majority of young people aren't going to be either performers or composers. What they need is to have the widest range of music readily available to listen to. But they don't. They have a narrow range of danceable ear-catching music. It is a greater challenge to find a way to get them to listen to anything totally different. It may be your life's work to get them to do so, but you can't reach all young people.

To say - or even think - that all music is just 'music' makes about as much sense as saying all books are just books. Which they are. Considering music 'critically' doesn't mean deciding what you like or don't like, or what is rubbish and what is good. Having an open mind presupposes, ideally, that the mind is equally receptive to all musics, but that isn't the case. The default position is a familiarity with and liking for (commercial) popular music. Classical music is not a type of music that it even occurs to people to offer as an alternative.

[MrGongGong]

To say - or even think - that all music is just 'music' makes about as much sense as saying all books are just books. Which they are. Considering music 'critically' doesn't mean deciding what you like or don't like, or what is rubbish and what is good. Having an open mind presupposes, ideally, that the mind is equally receptive to all musics, but that isn't the case. The default position is a familiarity with and liking for (commercial) popular music. Classical music is not a type of music that it even occurs to people to offer as an alternative.

It's never (regardless of what Gareth said on TV last week ) "just" music
Having an open mind means that one should be able listen to ALL of it and be able to deconstruct it rather than making some daft statement like this

My family are all classical musicians and so we were never introduced to pop music when we were younger. I'm the eldest of eight children and my father used to say pop music would turn our brains to pus. We were never allowed to listen to it, simply because he couldn't stand it. It would make him really angry to even hear a drum beat anywhere, it wasn't an option!

Is this the kind of parent one would want ?

I told my daughter that listening to Steps would make her stupid , she (wisely) ignored me
she has a First for her music degree and I have a 2:1
She also has a 'friend' who's parents didn't allow TV, magazines or pop music in the house, this girl now has therapy, is trying to recover from alcohol dependency and anorexia ..... not wise parents at all.

The other problem I have with this statement is that it assumes that 'classical musicians' are somehow people who don't listen to other forms of music. I used to be on the insurance of a staff car for one of the major London orchestra's , it was a relief to find that in the glovebox along with CDs of Elgar , Brahms and Beethoven were ABBA gold, a punk compilation , Kind of Blue and Second Toughest in the Infants


(and this http://www.overgrownpath.com/2013/12...arket-for.html)

[french frank]

she has a First for her music degree and I have a 2:1

Don't be humble. Firsts are much commoner now than they used to be ...

She also has a 'friend' who's parents didn't allow TV, magazines or pop music in the house, this girl now has therapy, is trying to recover from alcohol dependency and anorexia ..... not wise parents at all.

Very unwise. Parents should be told that that sort of upbringing will inevitably lead to therapy, alcohol dependency and anorexia. As will the opposite sort of upbringing.

The other problem I have with this statement is that it assumes that 'classical musicians' are somehow people who don't listen to other forms of music.

I wonder how many 'pop/rock' musicians get by without ever listening to classical music. Not such a problem that way round?

[MrGongGong]

I wonder how many 'pop/rock' musicians get by without ever listening to classical music. Not such a problem that way round?

It is a problem when they make idiotic statements that are meant to be 'advice'
Macca being a case in point
Most musicians I have met are interested in, or rather obsessed with, MUSIC regardless of the tag it is given.
Actually, I'm not sure that I believe the story about her dad anyway.

The point about controlling parents is not that things necessarily follow BUT that unless you give people the means to understand the contexts of culture then you are selling them short. Personally, I care much more about Messiaen than what is on Radio 1 most of the time BUT i'm not so stupid as to pretend that by only allowing someone to listen to one kind of thing i'm doing them a favour. People have to make their own choices, if you , in the name of protection, take away those choices then people are likely (like my daughters friend) to make very bad choices indeed.

What annoys me is that idiotic statements like the one in this article are presented as advice (like the nonsense spouted by McCartney about music notation), what you have to do to become 'successful' as a 'classical' musician which is, as many of us know, utter nonsense. Sadly this fits the narrative so it gets printed.

[mercia]

the Bevans are perhaps a little different from the average family

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/8837012/Sophie-Bevan-Soprano-with-the-genes-for-greatness.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2sxzI1EAH4

[MrGongGong]

the Bevans are perhaps a little different from the average family

Quiet times may find her deep in a historical novel, but on a Saturday night when she’s not performing, there’s nothing she enjoys more than stomping out to a rock gig and “mindlessly dancing my head off”. One of her favourites at the moment is an indie outfit called Rocketeer. Guess what: it’s the Bevan family rock band.

oooops the story slips a little
better get back on message

[french frank]

oooops the story slips a little
better get back on message

Good find, mercia. I was just going to remark that perhaps things were not exactly the way they sounded ...