Britten-fest...the aftermath

[teamsaint]

Surely the problem with establishment accents is what they suggest, in terms of hierarchy and privilege, rather than any problem with the specific speaker.
Lots of people do seem have problems with regional accents on the BBC or elsewhere, which doesn't make a prejudice against an establishment or RP accent right.

Prejudice is wrong, as is the degree of privilege that certain groups in our country enjoy.

[Stephen Whitaker]

From Joyce Grenfell's - 'Letters from Aldeburgh'
[discussing the table-talk of Alfred and Clementine Beit and Vivien Mosley,
which included 'free opinions FFF' of the 'modern art is rubbish and BB can't write a tune' variety]

"They were really rather terrible and once again I felt ashamed of my class and disassociated myself from it!
It is the total disregard of other people that is so unattractive. And so arrogant...................
I do think it's time there was a social change, roll on the tumbrils."

This was in 1969 and of course the tumbrils did come for Sir Alfred in the form of the IRA who pistol-whipped him and stole his paintings in the 70s.


Joyce was clear-eyed in her enthusiasm for BB, writing that....

" There is a faintly - and I mean faint - malicious streak that is apparently latent in these rather feminine men.
I think that he could be ruthless, merciless? It is part of the insecurity of such a position, no doubt.
He is very agreeable to meet; generous about talent in others......"

[Mary Chambers]

From Joyce Grenfell's - 'Letters from Aldeburgh'

" There is a faintly - and I mean faint - malicious streak that is apparently latent in these rather feminine men.
I think that he could be ruthless, merciless? It is part of the insecurity of such a position, no doubt.
He is very agreeable to meet; generous about talent in others......"

"Rather feminine men" is outdated thinking, isn't it? She was of her time, and her writings about Aldeburgh make interesting and enjoyable reading indeed, in their context.

The only way I can see that BB's music could be seen as class-related is that in some of the operas and some of the songs he does assume a certain level of education on the part of the listener. It helps if the listener understands the classical references in, for instance, Death in Venice (Apollo and Dionysus, Socrates), and it helps to have a good knowledge of French for Les Illuminations, since the Rimbaud poems are almost impossible to translate well. I'm sure there are other examples.

However, there is no real reason now to assume that education is the preserve of people with 'posh accents', is there? It probably was once.

[teamsaint]

"Rather feminine men" is outdated thinking, isn't it? She was of her time, and her writings about Aldeburgh make interesting and enjoyable reading indeed, in their context.

The only way I can see that BB's music could be seen as class-related is that in some of the operas and some of the songs he does assume a certain level of education on the part of the listener. It helps if the listener understands the classical references in, for instance, Death in Venice (Apollo and Dionysus, Socrates), and it helps to have a good knowledge of French for Les Illuminations, since the Rimbaud poems are almost impossible to translate well. I'm sure there are other examples.

However, there is no real reason now to assume that education is the preserve of people with 'posh accents', is there? It probably was once.

No, but the problem is that the class which predominantly has "posh accents" is pretty good at keeping the "best" education for itself.

[Quarky]

The important issue for listeners is whether the accent of people involved in the classical world gets in the way of listening pleasure, or whether the listener allows it to get in the way.

IMV, posh accents are prevalent in the classical world, the latest example of which was Andrew Hill discussing his recital with a Sheffield based BBC presenter on PO3. I can't help feeling that many performers "put on" an accent.

It does not really bother me- after all I am just a member of the audience. I am not being asked to get into bed with the person concerned.

Sean Rafferty is a very good example of a posh voice which does not get in the way - his humanity is apparent whether he is speaking to Classical, Jazz or "other" musicians.

A posh accent is objectionable where it appears to be there deliberately to distance the speaker from the listeners - I'm better than you are. I think this a shrinking area - look at accents within the Tory government - well spoken, but not posh - not readily distinguishable from Ed Milliband, Ed Balls.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Sean Rafferty is a very good example of a posh voice which does not get in the way - his humanity is apparent whether he is speaking to Classical, Jazz or "other" musicians.

"posh"??

"does not get in the way"??

"his humanity is apparent"? - well yes, I suppose so, but only as in the phrase "To err is human..."

Slightly more on topic, I'll concede that my problems ain't with the voice as such...but do you really think of it as 'posh'?

If the above is too ad hominem I give free permission for its deletion, coupled with my own banishment down the garden to eat worms

[Stephen Whitaker]

Sean is posh for an Ulsterman since the voice is nicely between Paisley and Adams.

[jean]

Surely the original point about the accent of Britten's supporters was meant to be that it was an indication of their social position, wealth, and influence, which caused a really rather inferior composer to achieve a status he did not merit?

(This is my interpretation of what was being said, not what I think.)

[Bryn]

... IMV, posh accents are prevalent in the classical world, the latest example of which was Andrew Hill discussing his recital with a Sheffield based BBC presenter on PO3. I can't help feeling that many performers "put on" an accent. ...

"Andrew Hill"? I must have missed that one, and you could not possibly mean Peter of that ilk. Can't hear his accent as "posh".

[Stephen Whitaker]

"Rather feminine men" is outdated thinking, isn't it?"
It may be outdated terminology but the 'thinking' was kind, in a way that is typical of her;
she wouldn't have wanted to offend the recipient of her correspondence
(or BB) with the explicit use of 'homosexual' or its coarser equivalents.

[amateur51]

"Rather feminine men" is outdated thinking, isn't it?"
It may be outdated terminology but the 'thinking' was kind, in a way that is typical of her;
she wouldn't have wanted to offend the recipient of her correspondence
(or BB) with the explicit use of 'homosexual' or its coarser equivalents.

I take your point.

There are also plenty of 'rather feminine' men who are not homosexual, of course

[Stephen Whitaker]

"Andrew Hill"? I must have missed that one, and you could not possibly mean Peter of that ilk. Can't hear his accent as "posh".

Peter Hill's accent is exactly what one would expect of an Oxford educated professor in his mid-sixties , it certainly isn't 'put on'..

[Mary Chambers]

There are also plenty of 'rather feminine' men who are not homosexual, of course

And plenty of homosexuals who aren't remotely feminine - that's really what I meant when I said it struck me as outdated thinking. I'm sure Joyce Grenfell meant well.

[Quarky]

"Andrew Hill"? I must have missed that one, and you could not possibly mean Peter of that ilk. Can't hear his accent as "posh".

Apologies for not checking out my references - yes, it was Peter Hill.

In regard to Sean Rafferty, I'm currently listening to him talking with Jacques Imbrailo and Alasdair Hogarth (In Tune last night), whose speaking voices are relatively untrained, and make for slightly uncomfortable listening. OK for Radio 6, but for Classical music, I guess we expect precision throughout.

[Stanley Stewart]

Well, I'm still chuckling at a recording, Maggi Hambling's choice of a honky-tonk blues number from the 1920's on Private Passions, (24 Nov) from Aldeburgh. George Melly with John Chilton's Feetwarmers, delicious performance of Masculine Women, Feminine Men;

"Masculine Women, Feminine Men,
which is the rooster, which is the hen?..."