Max news.

[french frank]

Now I have read it, I'm inclined to agree, though i have no competence to judge whether teaching in schools is to blame. The indisputable fact is that children ARE ignorant of classical music and so are a couple of generations above them.

" The Queen’s official composer has warned that hundreds of thousands of British youngsters have never even heard of Beethoven or Mozart thanks to the education system’s “elitist” treatment of classical music.

Sir Peter Maxwell Davies said the situation has reached a “serious tipping point” whereby centuries of great works could be lost to future generations more interested in “vacuous celebrity culture and inane talent shows."

I really don't know what he means about the 'education system's "elitist" treatment of classical music'. But I don't think that FoR3 can be entirely to blame for the national situation still less the similar situation in other countries

[ahinton]

(Singed)
A. Nutcase (Ms)

Not too badly burned, I hope!...

[MrGongGong]

Sir Peter Maxwell Davies said the situation has reached a “serious tipping point” whereby centuries of great works could be lost to future generations more interested in “vacuous celebrity culture and inane talent shows." :

I have a lot of respect and time for Max
but i'm not sure that this analysis is useful
The "problem" IMV is not that "classical" (or "Classical" or Jazz, Folk Music, Acousmatic music etc etc etc) is going to be "lost" but rather that there is a current of "thought" (the one that starts the curriculum document with the phrase "Music is a universal language" ) that panders to the idea that music only has ONE function, To serve as entertainment ..........

I'm not sure that people in the past were more aware of "classical music" at all ?
When I used to go to Liverpool Phil concerts as a teenager in the 1970's I was always the youngest person there so it's not as if classical music has somehow become 'marginalised' recently

[french frank]

I'm not sure that people in the past were more aware of "classical music" at all ?

That's because 'classical' largely conveys an historical perspective. People in the past weren't historical and nor was their music

When I used to go to Liverpool Phil concerts as a teenager in the 1970's I was always the youngest person there so it's not as if classical music has somehow become 'marginalised' recently

But you went as a teenager. I didn't, but was certainly aware of 'classical music' as being something different from the Everley Brothers, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Marty Wilde, Billy Fury, Georgie Fame, Dickie Pride ... And I knew Beethoven's 5th, Tchaikovsky's 6th, Dvořák's From the New World, plus a handful of operatic arias. And that meant when I made more personal choices I gave the rock and rollers the elbow and then discovered chamber music.

But you have to find that way in first, which is why, contrary to assertions made by others, I would heartily approve of a daily programme for children on Radio 3 - I (as an adult) thought Kenyon's 'Music Machine' was actually pretty good, whereas Wright's Making Tracks was pretty bad. But I do think it's preferable for such programmes to be on CBeebies and CBBc because you could guarantee that children would be looking. On Radio 3 parents of the young children have first to be listeners in order to 'train' their children to listen. But parents of young children now are more likely to be listening to Radio 1, 6 Music or Radio 2 - and to claim they've 'never heard of' Radio 3. That's surely why 'Now' is different from the 1970s.

[MrGongGong]

Its an interesting discussion to be had
I liked 'Music Machine' and 'Making Tracks' was also sometimes good
but
I don't think that the way to encourage young people to experience a wider range of musics (which includes all the kinds of 'niche' stuff on EMS, CE etc etc IMV) is necessarily best done through the radio at all. Many of the young people I work with WILL find themselves listening to "classical" music on the radio BUT after they have a well contextualised experience of music happening in another context.
Classical music is essentially a live art, I love listening to recordings don't get me wrong BUT in my experience these days with the massive variety of things available you simply wont inspire people through the radio or recorded music. I think wider listening comes with a wider range of experiences.

What I liked about Making Tracks is that it would include music for acoustic ensembles COMPOSED by young people who were the target audience , that makes sense. What doesn't work is the whole "Peter & The Wolf" (which incidentally IS a great piece of music ) approach. Sit a 10 year old in front of an orchestra playing the Rite Of Spring (or Atmospheres , Metastasis, Gruppen, Turangalila etc ) and they will be moved, play the same music on a radio speaker and they will be bored.

Why do you have to

I gave the rock and rollers the elbow

Surely it's as well as rather than instead of ?


If you want to encourage listening then this

http://www.minuteoflistening.org/

Is the way to do it IMV rather than a genre based approach
What we need to encourage is curious ears

[teamsaint]

probably veering further off topic...we are living in a time when we can be in danger of drowning in "content" (awful word).
Live music as a medium for delivering new audiences can have its problems, since time and money are finite resources, and many of us make conservative choices in constrained situations.
However, there are situations where audiences can be very receptive to new musical and artistic experiences. festivals can sometimes be examples of this.
I wonder if radio can learn lessons from this, given the great popularity of festivals. (I wonder who gets inspired by R3 week long total immersion events ?)I think Gongers is mostly right in his RoS example, but I don't think its always the case that radio will fail to inspire.

[Serial_Apologist]

probably veering further off topic...we are living in a time when we can be in danger of drowning in "content" (awful word).
Live music as a medium for delivering new audiences can have its problems, since time and money are finite resources, and many of us make conservative choices in constrained situations.
However, there are situations where audiences can be very receptive to new musical and artistic experiences. festivals can sometimes be examples of this.
I wonder if radio can learn lessons from this, given the great popularity of festivals. (I wonder who gets inspired by R3 week long total immersion events ?)I think Gongers is mostly right in his RoS example, but I don't think its always the case that radio will fail to inspire.

[Stephen Whitaker]

I'm not sure that people in the past were more aware of "classical music" at all ?

I recommend this book which has some interesting facts about 'classical' music and the lower orders.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0300153651/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If people in the past weren't historical and nor was their music then how come Handel's Messiah was ubiquitous?
The huge choral societies that sustained Elgar in his early days were not composed entirely of the middle classes
and neither was the brass/silver band movement which was similarly working class.

The Lancashire musical life that sustained both Kathleen Ferrier and Gracie Fields
was wide-ranging in its taste and some of it was for the historical.

I think that the elitism that Max is referring to is that of an education system in which only the private sector
offers the sort of grounding needed to produce Ms Benedetti.

Sadly King David High School, Liverpool, which produced both Mark Simpson and Guy Chambers is very much not the norm in the state sector.

[teamsaint]

looks a fascinating book, SW.
There are things that are well worth investigating around this subject. For instance, literacy rates, (and not just the ability to sign a marriage certificate) seem to have been pretty high in Britain and Germany around 1900.depends how you measure it, but examples such as the quality of writing from the trenches , and the huge popularity of Dickens and Conan Doyle, suggest that for some sections of the population, education in these areas may not have moved on all that much, or as much as we would like to think, by the early C21. I wonder if something similar can be said for music, where the influence of church music must have been very great.
I think what we have now is not successful education, but a successful education industry.
I am guessing that MrGG was probably thinking about education in classical music over perhaps the last 50 years. I'm not sure that my peers (at a very "good" school) in the 1970's were any better or more widely educated in music than kids in similar schools today.

[MrGongGong]

Live music as a medium for delivering new audiences can have its problems, since time and money are finite resources, and many of us make conservative choices in constrained situations.

There is something interesting here
If one looks at what music organisations are doing in the current climate some are going the whole Four seasons by candlelight / Vivaldi Gloria route, but NOT everyone.
In constrained situations I am personally likely to make more adventurous choices , it might be the last chance I get !
Maybe we need to find ways of encouraging people (look at what Spitalfields music are doing for example ) to make more adventurous choices in constrained situations ? There will always be performances of Schubert to look forward to ! ( )

[teamsaint]

Well at a very simple level, somewhat more adventurous concert programmes might help. Arts festivals would be a great place to start.

Arts festivals could be great places to widen the demographic for particular kinds of music. My limited experience is that the Classical music element of Arts festivals tends to be priced and programmed in a way which might be designed to keep any interested newcomer well away.

(I would like to add that my own choices of course are adventurous, informed, and supportive of the most deserving artists !)

All of which is, I suppose, a bit Off topic.
Back to P M D, I would value some suggestions as to good places to start properly with his music. I've dabbled here and there, and found lots to intrigue, but the "lots" is the problem, so a few pointers would be very welcome.
Thanks.

[Stephen Whitaker]

Arts festivals would be a great place to start.

Arts festivals could be great places to widen the demographic for particular kinds of music. My limited experience is that the Classical music element of Arts festivals tends to be priced and programmed in a way which might be designed to keep any interested newcomer well away.

)

Buxton is a notable example of pricing to attract new audiences..............



"From 1 June all available seats are £5 for under-30s. Book at the Opera House Box Office or by phone.
Tickets must be collected from the Box Office and proof of age provided.

Students, under-18s, and those on JSA/Income Support may purchase any available seat for an opera performance at half price
from 30 minutes before the performance starts (excludes Saturday operas). Personal callers at the box office only.

Under 16s go half price to all performances."

[teamsaint]

WNO are doing similar ticketing as well. Under 30's can see Tosca for £5.00 tonight.
Is this supported by some grant aid, I wonder? good news either way.
personally i think there should be similar schemes for hard working 50/60 YO's.

[Hornspieler]

Now I have read it, I'm inclined to agree, though i have no competence to judge whether teaching in schools is to blame. The indisputable fact is that children ARE ignorant of classical music and so are a couple of generations above them.

" The Queen’s official composer has warned that hundreds of thousands of British youngsters have never even heard of Beethoven or Mozart thanks to the education system’s “elitist” treatment of classical music.

Sir Peter Maxwell Davies said the situation has reached a “serious tipping point” whereby centuries of great works could be lost to future generations more interested in “vacuous celebrity culture and inane talent shows."

I really don't know what he means about the 'education system's "elitist" treatment of classical music'. But I don't think that FoR3 can be entirely to blame for the national situation still less the similar situation in other countries

How very true!

One has only to watch BBC 2s "University Challenge" - a contest berween two teams of students from our top universities.

Play them any well-known piece of music and ask who is the composer. After an embarrassing pause, one of the eight students will sound his/her buzzer and answer hopefully "Beethoven?"

.. and these are supposed to be the future intellectual leaders of our country.

[MrGongGong]

I refer my honourable hornplayer colleague to the article below

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511627309&cid=CBO9780511627309A010