Do you prefer Joy or Freedom?

[Sydney Grew]

It is rumoured - I cannot confirm it for the moment - that Schiller's Ode to Joy (set by umpteen composers) was in its first version called Ode to Freedom. (Freude - joy; Freiheit - freedom.)

I wonder whether they are related. My own view is that true joy is not possible without a curtailment of freedom. If members had to choose, which would they plump for: joy without freedom, or freedom without joy?

And how do FAE and FAF fit in, if at all?

[amateur51]

It is rumoured - I cannot confirm it for the moment - that Schiller's Ode to Joy (set by umpteen composers) was in its first version called Ode to Freedom. (Freude - joy; Freiheit - freedom.)

I wonder whether they are related. My own view is that true joy is not possible without a curtailment of freedom. If members had to choose, which would they plump for: joy without freedom, or freedom without joy?

And how do FAE and FAF fit in, if at all?

What definitions of 'joy' and 'freedom' are you using, Maestro?

[jean]

It all sounds a bit Christian to me - true joy only to be found in the service of the Lord, that sort of thing.

[vinteuil]

It all sounds a bit Christian to me - true joy only to be found in the service of the Lord, that sort of thing.

... "O God, who art the author of peace and lover of concord, in knowledge of whom standeth our eternal life, whose service is perfect freedom; Defend us thy humble servants in all assaults of our enemies... "

[Dave2002]

It all sounds a bit Christian to me - true joy only to be found in the service of the Lord, that sort of thing.

Thinks for a minute:

You can be free, but not joyful.

I suppose you may not be free, but in some ways you could still be joyful - that's questionable.
Could get into free will discussions this route.

[MrGongGong]

And how do FAE and FAF fit in, if at all?

WTF are they Bro ?

[jean]

...whose service is perfect freedom...

I know, but that's just a paradox to make you buy into the whole service thing.

...imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.

.

[Dave2002]

And how do FAE and FAF fit in, if at all?

Dunno. FAE? FAF?

[Dave2002]

WTF are they Bro ?

I suspect you've been looking at the Urban Dictionary again - hopefully not those meanings!

[vinteuil]

I am not sure that either abstract term is very helpful without several pages of clarification to specify what kind of "freedom" or "joy" is up for discussion. I doubt that a message board - even one populated by listeners to the Third Programme - will add much depth or insight.

[amateur51]

I am not sure that either abstract term is very helpful without several pages of clarification to specify what kind of "freedom" or "joy" is up for discussion. I doubt that a message board - even one populated by listeners to the Third Programme - will add much depth or insight.

I was hoping that the ever-erudite Prof Grew would have sorted that out for mere mortals such as I am before posting, vints

[Gordon]

It is rumoured - I cannot confirm it for the moment - that Schiller's Ode to Joy (set by umpteen composers) was in its first version called Ode to Freedom. (Freude - joy; Freiheit - freedom.)

I wonder whether they are related. My own view is that true joy is not possible without a curtailment of freedom. If members had to choose, which would they plump for: joy without freedom, or freedom without joy?

And how do FAE and FAF fit in, if at all?

Not sure if Schiller used dfferent words, can't find any reference online, but didn't our Lennie change the word for the wall coming down performance in Berlin in 89?? Was there a precedent or was Lennie being opportunistic?? Bach's Jesu meine Freude would chime with Jean's remark of course.

As for links to Brahms/Joachim mottos, Schiller's original German used the word Freude of course so what does that actually translate to?

Free but Lonely [FAE] or Free but Joyful [FAF, Froh], didn't he mean happy? And don't they both mean Free in the narrow sense of not being maritally encumbered, post JJ's divorce that is?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Love to faults is always blind, always is to joy inclined. Lawless, winged, and unconfined, and breaks all chains from every mind.

otherwise i eats me oats and sings to the joys of a regular life ....

[Serial_Apologist]

Joy comes along to my regular Tuesday gig with her husband Julian I haven't met Freedom as yet.

[Petrushka]

The FAE and FAF mottoes are Brahms's musical cryptograms. See Symphony No 3.

In 1989 Leonard Bernstein replaced Freude with Freiheit in his Christmas Day performance of Beethoven's 9th following the fall of the Berlin Wall.