Brahms Reputation and Reception: Another Version of Junk DNA

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

this morning lying abed reading as the First String Quartet was broadcast by Rob C ....

i was reading this; a piece which concluded that so called junk DNA was anything but, that it contained many sequences which affected other gene implementations ...

i was struck by the similarity of reception of both Brahms and the DNA that does not instigate proteins .... and although Schoenberg and Adorno have repaired his reputation, one can still find derisory remarks about the composer ... whether or no he is more important than at first thought [pace junk dna] i am appalled that his genius can fail to connect with listeners, that the depth of expression, the non-technical appeal of his work is still denied ...

it was a good morning the sun shone through the blinds and the Amadeus are sublime ...

[french frank]

I assume you read the whole article as a subscriber...? Listening to the Brahms now :-) (did the title mean 'reputation'?)

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yes reputation but unable to edit so help appreciated!

can not find full text article but i read it as part of this as a kindle purchase ... well worth the price imv!

part of an enduring interest in the power of dogma over our thoughts, an important dogma concerning the non-plasticity of the brain was severely career limiting for most of the 20th century until this excellent book broke the hold of the dogma

see also on junk dna

[Ferretfancy]

I've always loved the string quartets and violin sonatas, but am I alone in finding the works for piano and strings rather heavy going? It's as something in Brahms was attempting to write an orchestral work for a chamber combination, an over emphatic quality.The F minor piano sonata strikes me in the same way.

Luckily for me, there's so much in this great composer to enjoy, in spite of remembering Britten's comment that he played through Brahms at the piano once a year just to remind himself how bad it was. An extraordinary and ridiculous statement!

[Sir Velo]

am I alone in finding the works for piano and strings rather heavy going?

In my case, Ferret, yes! I think the op 8 Piano trio; the piano quartets and the quintet among the greatest pieces of chamber music in the repertory. Likewise the F minor sonata for solo piano. If anything, I've never been able to rouse the same enthusiasm for the purely string works. The two cello sonatas are also magnificent pieces of music.; as is the trio for piano, horn and violin.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've always loved the string quartets and violin sonatas, but am I alone in finding the works for piano and strings rather heavy going? It's as something in Brahms was attempting to write an orchestral work for a chamber combination, an over emphatic quality.

I think that this is at least in part down to performers - especially insensitive pianists belting out fistfulls of notes on a modern concert grand, so that the string players have to struggle against what Brahms writes for them simply in order to be heard. The gentler tones of a mid-19th Century piano (and gut stringed instruments) helps to take off the glare so that this wonderful Music can be heard in its original colours. (Decent recording balance and/or hall acoustic essential, too, of course). Poor balance in the performance of the g minor Piano Quartet was Schoenberg's professed reason for orchestrating it.

The F minor piano sonata strikes me in the same way.

Well, this is quite an early work from a twenty-year-old composer; but, again, given a performer sensitive to the score's dynamic and tempo markings, it can be more effectively presented than it often is.

Luckily for me, there's so much in this great composer to enjoy, in spite of remembering Britten's comment that he played through Brahms at the piano once a year just to remind himself how bad it was. An extraordinary and ridiculous statement!

Yes - it's charitable to Britten's memory to pretend he didn't make some of the comments he did about Brahms and Beethoven. And Brahms is such a magnificent composer - one whose work gets better and better for me as I get older.

[Dave2002]

If anything, I've never been able to rouse the same enthusiasm for the purely string works.

You have to work at them a bit - I think they'll repay the effort - that's the two sextets and the two quintets - lovely. I can understand that perhaps other pieces such as the piano quintet have even greater impact at first hearing. I can't quite understand why Britten disliked Brahms, or at least stated that he did, though rather begrudgingly thought the clarinet quintet was a very good work.

For the string works, and indeed for any of them, I recommend looking at the scores, most of which are available from the IMSLP Petrucci library. It does help to become more familiar with the music, and there are some surprises and insights to be gained by that approach.

[verismissimo]

I think that this is at least in part down to performers - especially insensitive pianists belting out fistfulls of notes on a modern concert grand, so that the string players have to struggle against what Brahms writes for them simply in order to be heard. The gentler tones of a mid-19th Century piano (and gut stringed instruments) helps to take off the glare so that this wonderful Music can be heard in its original colours.

This is spot on, ferney. A couple of years ago, we had the Dvorak piano quintet played by the fine Adderbury Ensemble in our village church - with our recently restored 1870 Broadwood. After the performance, I asked the players what they thought, and one of the string players said: "Well, it was the first time I've ever heard myself play in that work."

And as an audience member, it was transformed from the "fistfulls of notes on a modern concert grand", my experience in past performances of the Schumann, the Brahms and the Dvorak.

[muzzer]

I might be biased but I think JB is sublime. Complex yes, ornery definitely, but as with all the greats there are infinite depths beyond the tunes.

[Ferretfancy]

Sir Velo,

I absolutely concur with you about the wonderful cello sonatas and the Horn Trio. Perhaps I should take ferney's excellent advice and seek out the Piano Quintet on a recording with an earlier and gentler piano. I also think that I may have sated myself on Brahms in the past, devouring the Decca set of Julius Katchen in the solo piano music, for example. Perhaps a slight reaction has set in ? My feelings only apply to some of the chamber works, certainly not the concertos or symphonies.

Thanks for the perceptive comments.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

amongst others no doubt, i would be most grateful for a suggestion of a recording on period/hipp instruments

[Roehre]

In my top 3

[Nick Armstrong]

I might be biased but I think JB is sublime. Complex yes, ornery definitely, but as with all the greats there are infinite depths beyond the tunes.

[jayne lee wilson]

amongst others no doubt, i would be most grateful for a suggestion of a recording on period/hipp instruments

Two Hipps-Brahms albums which come to mind...

Brahms: The Sextets
Hausmusik London (Signum SIGCD013)

Brahms Piano Quartet Op.60; Piano Quintet Op.34
La Gaia Scienza (Winter&Winter Basic Edition 910 052-2) Reviewed Gramophone 10/2001.

I revelled in both of these - La Gaia Scienza couldn't be called mellow though - startling and confrontational is more their style!

I nearly always prefer smaller orchestras in the symphonies now - Mackerras/SCO, Berglund/COE - or on a slightly larger scale (60 players) Manze's outstanding Helsingborg set on CPO. These all use modern instruments though - orchestral hipps-style Brahms is pretty rare. (I do think reviewers are wrong-headed to compare these with Furtwangler, Klemperer et al, ranking them all by the same measure.... utterly missing the point.)

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

thank you jayne lee; i saw Mackerras at the de Montfort with one of the London orchestras and forswore his efforts thereafter since it was a performance by all that was less than phoned in ..... perfunctory and uninspiring except for the self satisfaction of the conductor .... i was surprised at my own displeasure not to say anger

i discover that i have the La Gaia Scienza in the Brahms and also the Schubert Trios [one's iTunes database can be a dark cavern! as are the cd or lp shelves!] and after listening to Bix i will spend the morning listening to them ...