The Composer and Recording

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  • aeolium
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 3992

    The Composer and Recording

    Watching several programmes related to the Britten centenary recently prompted this question: to what extent should performers be influenced, or even governed, by recordings made by the composer? Those who interpret the works of composers who lived before the age of recording have only the score and other historical information about performance style to guide them, but those who are performing C20 works often have the additional pressure of knowing that the composer has recorded them: for instance, Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Bartok, Rachmaninov, Britten, Tippett, Boulez, Stravinsky to name a few.

    So has the presence of composer interpretations helped or restricted the interpretations of succeeding performers? I don't get the impression that in many cases it has prevented later performers from departing significantly from the composer's recordings - especially for instance with Elgar and Vaughan Williams. But there is one particular composer whose recordings cast a long shadow over the efforts of later interpreters: Britten, not just because he was an expert conductor of his own works, was very meticulous about getting exactly the results that he wanted and had - unusually - one long-standing preferred singer for the recordings, Peter Pears, but also because he clearly believed that future interpretations should attempt to match as closely as possible those that he had laid down. Here is Professor Roger Parker in his recent Gresham College lecture:

    "Britten seemed to leave remarkably little to the discretion of the performers, and as if to demonstrate this further, he jotted down precise timings (timings accurate to the second) for each movement. What is more, we have ample evidence that the composer became increasingly intolerant of performers who strayed from what he considered the exact letter of the text. The vocal score of Death in Venice, for example, contains the following, rather threatening instruction: “[the opera] has been recorded complete on Decca under the supervision of the composer. It is recommended that all those involved in a production of the opera should acquaint themselves with this recording”. And when in 1975 Britten heard the Canadian tenor Jon Vickers take the protagonist’s role in Peter Grimes at Covent Garden, and perform it in a vocal manner whose robustness was many leagues away from the then-standard interpretation of Peter Pears, he was incensed, commenting “Why does this man not observe what I wanted?”"

    Was Britten right to be so keen to influence future performances in this way? I don't think so, and I think the Colin Davis/ROH production of Peter Grimes with Vickers in the title role was a brave repudiation of that approach. Many people have admired that production as reflecting something of more elemental force in Grimes' character, something at least closer to the character in the Crabbe poem and arguably the libretto. And the more general point is that in an artist's work there is much over which the artist has conscious mastery, yet there are also qualities of his unconscious mind over which he does not have control. I certainly feel this when reading Dickens, that he is relentlessly pursuing secret themes which he could not consciously acknowledge (to do with his childhood and his treatment by his parents). It ought to be possible for later interpreters to bring out elements in the work which the composer did not, perhaps could not.
    Last edited by aeolium; 17-11-13, 11:56.
  • Roehre

    #2
    An interesting and wideranging subject. A real can of worms indeed

    To mention a couple of related/intertwined observations:

    -where ends a truthful interpretation and begin other -possibly not in accordance with the composer's intentions- elements creep in - which Mahler is Mahler, Abbado's, Haitink's, Bernstein's [and then which of their recordings e.g.].

    -what to do with technical and editorial developments following the death (or the end of the working life) of the composer, a field that began and gained importance since the 1960s with the editions of early music (essentially pre-Bach) and the reconstruction of performance practices (originally pre-Baroque, but now reaching the 20C already, but also: what is against playing Bach on piano e.g.?);
    the realisation that even in the 20C musical instruments have changed (Debussy on "original" 1890s instruments e.g.);
    and the edition/publication of critically edited scores (the disc ussion surrounding the Bruckner Symphony versions, but also the recently published New Beethoven Symphonies Critical Edition by DelMar).

    -what to do with recordings made by the composer himself of his works, especially where more than one such a recording exists (like Stravinsky)

    -what to do with scores where the composer defines the length of a movement to the second precisely (Bartok. especially the string quartets)

    ****

    If Britten was less than happy with Vickers, then IMO he has not exclusively defined the voice he wanted in Grimes.
    Is Vickers therefore not suitable for Grimes? According to the compser less so, according to the conductor and the public it was an intriguing alternative, and a valid one on top of that.

    [An aside to this: if Britten was so adament to get the right voice on the right place and commenting “Why does this man not observe what I wanted?”, what about editing and performing pieces which were not prepared or even meant for publication, like the double concerto, the original version of the piano (and the violin!-) concerto, or the recently reconstructed clarinet concerto?]

    To define what one wishes seems to be a near impossibillity. Mahler's performance instructions in his scores are the most explicit instructions which a composer/conductor upto then had defined, with the meaning to define the music to such an extant that it were to be performed as closely as possible to Mahler's intentions.
    Now, a century after his death, the way the Mahler works are performed vary greatly (I love understaments).
    Which is following Mahler's intentions a closely a possible?
    We only have to follow the heated discussion re Norrington's 9, or compare Mahler's pianorolls of the Fifth Symphonies' 1st mvt with the many -not in the score indicated- tempo fluctuations, or the length of the famous Adagietto (varying between 8 -according to Mengelberg the correct duration- and nearly 15 minutes -to allow people to revel in that piece), or the extraordinary length of Mahler 7 1st mvt as recorded by Klemperer.

    Artistic freedom should have its place in performance practice, but where do the differences in interpretation creep in, and -often impossible to answer- why?
    Vickers could well sing and perform in Grimes. Is the public's appreciation more important than the composer's wishes, or should it be "The composer's wish is our command?"

    Though I personally find that the composer's works should be performed as nearly as possible to what he (likely has)imagined -and which he recorded, we should never stick exclusively to that adage.
    It is not by chance that e.g. Britten and Rostropovich performed works according to their own discretion and view, not always follwing the composer's intentions. So, if a composer doesn't observe other composer's instructions, why should an interpreting artist refrain from doing so?
    And: Hindemith's, Strauss', Elgar's and Stravinsky's recordings of their own works show differences in interpretation between the different recordings they made of one work (Elgar's remakes following the development of electroacoustical devices, Stravinky's following his contract with CBS). which one is the "correct" one?
    Last edited by Guest; 17-11-13, 17:55.

    Comment

    • Eine Alpensinfonie
      Host
      • Nov 2010
      • 20576

      #3
      In the case of Britten, most of his tenor roles were written for Peter Pears, so no-one else's voice would have satisfied him. I wonder whether he ever considered what would happen after PP was no longer around.

      Comment

      • aeolium
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 3992

        #4
        Thanks for those very interesting thoughts, Roehre

        Where you say "To define what one wishes seems to be a near impossibility" I think that is a good thing - I think it is preferable in some ways to have ambiguity in the score (as with, for instance, the absence of dynamic markings in some earlier music). Even with the most precise markings there is so much that cannot be exactly specified.

        I think it has been mentioned in some BaLs where composer recordings have been discussed that composers have in some cases not observed their own instructions in performance! What greater recommendation for flexibility in interpretation could there be?

        Comment

        • Eine Alpensinfonie
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 20576

          #5
          Originally posted by aeolium View Post
          Thanks for those very interesting thoughts, Roehre

          Where you say "To define what one wishes seems to be a near impossibility" I think that is a good thing - I think it is preferable in some ways to have ambiguity in the score (as with, for instance, the absence of dynamic markings in some earlier music). Even with the most precise markings there is so much that cannot be exactly specified.

          I think it has been mentioned in some BaLs where composer recordings have been discussed that composers have in some cases not observed their own instructions in performance! What greater recommendation for flexibility in interpretation could there be?
          Absolutely. Elgar is a case in point.

          Comment

          • MrGongGong
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 18357

            #6
            Originally posted by Roehre View Post
            which one is the "correct" one?
            Interesting discussion to which I would like to think more
            But my initial thoughts are wondering whether the idea of "the work" as something which has a "correct" version is rather odd. One of the reasons why some composers become composers of acousmatic music is that they wish to control everything possible. If you have people (and also if you have loudspeakers !) you get variation (Cage's writings about indeterminacy spring to mind).

            Comment

            • aeolium
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 3992

              #7
              Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
              But my initial thoughts are wondering whether the idea of "the work" as something which has a "correct" version is rather odd. One of the reasons why some composers become composers of acousmatic music is that they wish to control everything possible. If you have people (and also if you have loudspeakers !) you get variation (Cage's writings about indeterminacy spring to mind).
              I agree, and I would almost go so far as to suggest that the term "definitive performance" is an oxymoron - there can be no such thing.

              Comment

              • pastoralguy
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7816

                #8
                Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                Absolutely. Elgar is a case in point.
                As is the Walton violin concerto which is minutely annotated at the request of its dedicatee, Mr. Jascha Heifetz.

                Comment

                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  #9
                  Originally posted by aeolium View Post
                  Where you say "To define what one wishes seems to be a near impossibility" I think that is a good thing - I think it is preferable in some ways to have ambiguity in the score (as with, for instance, the absence of dynamic markings in some earlier music). Even with the most precise markings there is so much that cannot be exactly specified.
                  By a remarkable coincidence, that's the second time today that someone has expressed these sentiments - at around 11:15 this morning, the same thing was being said about his own Music by Brian Ferneyhough at a public chat at the HMCF. (He also mentioned how he finds it difficult to tell performers how they should approach his complex rhythmic matrices - "I just say, 'Well, it goes like this'" ... and sings it to them!)

                  I think it has been mentioned in some BaLs where composer recordings have been discussed that composers have in some cases not observed their own instructions in performance! What greater recommendation for flexibility in interpretation could there be?
                  Well, several - or none. Stravinsky was a very good conductor, but not so good a rehearser - the best of his three recordings of The Rake's Progress is the one from performances given at the Met: where the orchestra had been meticulously prepared by Fritz Reiner, so that the orchestral Musicians knew the work intimately and could respond to Stravinsky's nuances. A subsequent student performance in Boston ground to a halt on a couple of occasions because the players couldn't follow Stravinsky's directions, and he didn't know how to guide them. In all Stravinsky's recordings, he was dependent on the professionalism of the players: this more than any other consideration, determines the way the Music is performed, not Stravinsky "changing his mind" about how the Music should "go".

                  And in 1929, when he recorded the work for the first time, Stravinsky was no longer the composer of Le Sacre; he was the composer of the Cappriccio for Piano & Orchestra and the Symphony of Psalms. In 1940 (when he recorded Le Scare for the second time) he was the composer of the Symphony in C - and, in 1960, he was the composer of A Sermon, a Narrative and a Prayer. The composer of the works of 1929, 1940 and 1960 was the performer of the work, no longer the composer (I don't want this to be used as an argument against paying composers roayalties!) And what he performed was as close to the written scores that he could get.

                  Composers' not observing their own markings might arise from all sorts of non-interpretive reasons. What is essential is that performers who get an audience to their concerts and recitals because they're advertizing "Beethoven's Hammerklavier" or "Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony" or "Webern's Bagatelles" should not break the Trades Descriptions Act by ignoring the scores of those works and fobbing off those audiences with their own ideas of what the composers should have written.
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                  Comment

                  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                    Gone fishin'
                    • Sep 2011
                    • 30163

                    #10
                    Originally posted by aeolium View Post
                    I agree, and I would almost go so far as to suggest that the term "definitive performance" is an oxymoron - there can be no such thing.
                    Oh, yes - I quite agree: only weak works can have only one type of performance (which is why I don't think anyone does any favours to their favourite recordings of a work - or to the work itself - to say that "Furtlemperer's is the only one I'll need"). But each performance should strive to achieve this "impossibilty": and ignoring the details of the score takes the work away from itself. If you want to perform Bartok, play as much of what Bartok asks of you as you can; if you want to do things differently, make up your own piece!
                    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                    Comment

                    • aeolium
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 3992

                      #11
                      Good points, ferney, and I think I should clarify that when I referred to instances where some composers did not appear to follow their own scores precisely in recordings I was not thinking of open licence to performers to ignore the scores. Clearly they should be followed as closely as is possible. But even with that, there is still much that cannot be specified. Both Pears and Vickers were presumably "following the score" in their interpretations of Grimes yet with extraordinarily different results. Is one of them wrong simply because his interpretation displeased the composer?

                      Comment

                      • ahinton
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 16123

                        #12
                        There's so much incredibly good sense here that I hardly know where to begin (except somewhere near the end, methinks!). Arrau, for example, recorded Schubert in early, middle and late career; the respective recordings inevitably differed considerably. How might Busoni have recorded his Toccata or his earlier Fantasia Contrappuntistica (if only!) in 1946 at the age of 80 had he lived that long?

                        Speaking as a composer I tell you all that the composer is ALWAYS right. That said, composers are human beings and, like other human beings, have the right and need to change their minds, so what I really mean is that composers are ALWAYS right at the time - au moment, as in; the conflict between immutability and flexibility never goes away...

                        Comment

                        • MrGongGong
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 18357

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ahinton View Post

                          Speaking as a composer I tell you all that the composer is ALWAYS right. ..
                          Do you think in your music that "it has to be exactly THIS way" regardless of who is playing and where it is being played ?
                          I'd be surprised for a composer to be like that. The other clip of Fernyhough discussing oboe multiphonics with Chris Redgate that HCMF posted on Stalkerbook is also interesting IMV

                          Comment

                          • Richard Barrett

                            #14
                            Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                            Do you think in your music that "it has to be exactly THIS way" regardless of who is playing and where it is being played ?
                            No. Not unfrequently, performers come up with solutions I hadn't thought of which I prefer to my own, and I don't like to publish a score before it's been performed at least once and any resultant findings and corrections incorporated. Also, questions like this depend on what kind of things are being communicated to the player(s) by the score. Earle Brown probably wasn't thinking about right and wrong notes when he wrote December 1952.

                            Comment

                            • richardfinegold
                              Full Member
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 7750

                              #15
                              Reading this thread, I am reminded of an anecdote concerning Brahms and Pierre Monteux, who at the time was a young Violist in a French String Quartet. Reportedly Brahms spoke to the French Musicians after they played one of his works and he complimented them effusively. Brahms stated that he had recently heard the same work performed by German Musicians and that the 2 performances were completely different regarding tempos, dynamics and phrasing, yet he loved them both.
                              I understand that a Composer would want to have some control over the performance of their own works, but as to specifying exact timings and tempos, it makes one wonder, in the age of recorded music, why they would ever want their works performed at all, once they have been recorded under their own supervision? Surely there must be some room for the interpreters to leave their own marks on the music.
                              Perhaps a Composer is simply not the best person to arbitrate these issues, as their involvement with the music may potentially interfere with their objectivity.

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