Conductors: late developers vs. early bloomers

[mathias broucek]

Someone recently said that they valued Haitink and Rattle's work with their "first loves" (RCO, CBSO) perhaps more than their more recent efforts.

Any views on conductors whose best work was:

1. earlier in their careers (Maazel, Ozawa, perhaps Karajan?)
2. relatively late (e.g. Klemperer, Tennstedt)
3. only apparent when they received, late in their careers, access to world-class orchestras (Wand, Celi*).
4. fairly consistent all along (Jochum, Davis)

* Yes, I know he had the post-war BPO

[Nick Armstrong]

Someone recently said that they valued Haitink and Rattle's work with their "first loves" (RCO, CBSO) perhaps more than their more recent efforts.

Any views on conductors whose best work was:

1. earlier in their careers (Maazel, Ozawa, perhaps Karajan?)
2. relatively late (e.g. Klemperer, Tennstedt)
3. only apparent when they received, late in their careers, access to world-class orchestras (Wand, Celi*).
4. fairly consistent all along (Jochum, Davis)

* Yes, I know he had the post-war BPO

Interesting. I'd be inclined to put Klaus Tennstedt in category 3. And Abbado is the first one to leap to mind to add to category 4

[Hornspieler]

Someone recently said that they valued Haitink and Rattle's work with their "first loves" (RCO, CBSO) perhaps more than their more recent efforts.

Any views on conductors whose best work was:

1. earlier in their careers (Maazel, Ozawa, perhaps Karajan?)
2. relatively late (e.g. Klemperer, Tennstedt)
3. only apparent when they received, late in their careers, access to world-class orchestras (Wand, Celi*).
4. fairly consistent all along (Jochum, Davis)

* Yes, I know he had the post-war BPO

Add Mackerras and Haitinck to Category 2

I would put David Zinman and Kent Nagano in category 3

To which Davis are you referring? I would agree about Sir Colin for Category 4 but not Sir Andrew Davis for any of those categories.

Abbado has probably maintained the most consistency throughout his carreer, so Category 4.

HS

[Alison]

Fascinating subject though as soon as I start assigning conductors to categories I think of exceptions and wonder if there is any point in generalising.

[Barbirollians]

Add Mackerras and Haitinck to Category 2

I would put David Zinman and Kent Nagano in category 3

To which Davis are you referring? I would agree about Sir Colin for Category 4 but not Sir Andrew Davis for any of those categories.



Abbado has probably maintained the most consistency throughout his carreer, so Category 4.

HS

Yes - there is a missing category no 5 for overrated conductors - and Sir Andrew Davis would be first in it for me .

[Bryn]

Yes - there is a missing category no 5 for overrated conductors - and Sir Andrew Davis would be first in it for me .

Generally considerably underrated where Messiaen and Ives are concerned. Fine RVW conductor too.

[ardcarp]

and Sir Andrew Davis would be first in it for me .

Oh dear me no. Excellent in my book...I agree with Bryn.

It's an interesting thread, but it really is difficult to tease out fame, talent, competence, inspiaration, and just sheer opportunity. I remember seeing Rattle conduct as a young 'apprentice' with the Bournmouth SO; and to do Strauss's 4 Last Songs at the age of nineteen was remarkable. Also where do you put Hickox...who carved out his own opportunity to conduct, had a somewhat ungainly style but nevertheless showed fantastic insights, especially in the English repertoire and where there was a choir involved?

[Richard Tarleton]

I'd place Haitink in 1,2 and 4 . He was already a fine conductor in his RCO/LPO days in the 1960s and 1970s (after all one of the great pioneers of the Bruckner and Mahler revival) - learnt to become a very good opera conductor during his Glyndebourne years, became a great Wagner conductor during his spell at the ROH, and has enjoyed (is enjoying) a golden autumn conducting some of the world's greatest orchestras in the last 10-15 years. There are happily several great Haitink "vintages" to enjoy across the last 40-50 years, what some of us have been privileged in recent years to witness is the sum of his life's experience.

[Sir Velo]

It's fairly pointless trying to pigeonhole every conductor into one of these categories. However, there are clearly "outliers" who immediately spring to mind. Georg Tintner is another of the "late developers", in spite or perhaps because of a rather specialised repertoire. Vernon Handley is another conductor who reached a wider audience later in his career. Having said that, the majority of high profile conductors have all established careers at a fairly high level at a relatively young age. Wand, for example, performed with the LSO as early as 1951 while still in his thirties. Tintner had a long career as director of various opera houses in New Zealand and Australia, just after the Second World War. Handley, of course, was a pupil of Boult; and was conducting the Bournemouth SO by the age of thirty.

[amateur51]

I'd place Haitink in 1,2 and 4 . He was already a fine conductor in his RCO/LPO days in the 1960s and 1970s (after all one of the great pioneers of the Bruckner and Mahler revival) - learnt to become a very good opera conductor during his Glyndebourne years, became a great Wagner conductor during his spell at the ROH, and has enjoyed (is enjoying) a golden autumn conducting some of the world's greatest orchestras in the last 10-15 years. There are happily several great Haitink "vintages" to enjoy across the last 40-50 years, what some of us have been privileged in recent years to witness is the sum of his life's experience.

[amateur51]

Generally considerably underrated where Messiaen and Ives are concerned. Fine RVW conductor too.

For me, he could open every Proms season with Messiaen if he'd like to ...

[Barbirollians]

For me, he could open every Proms season with Messiaen if he'd like to ...

Me too I like going on holiday in late July and feel I am not missing anything .

[Alison]

In the case of Sir Andrew it's simply that he's virtually unbeatable with some composers (I,ll chuck in Tippett too) while being very ordinary indeed with say Mahler and Beethoven.

[Petrushka]

I'd place Haitink in 1,2 and 4 . He was already a fine conductor in his RCO/LPO days in the 1960s and 1970s (after all one of the great pioneers of the Bruckner and Mahler revival) - learnt to become a very good opera conductor during his Glyndebourne years, became a great Wagner conductor during his spell at the ROH, and has enjoyed (is enjoying) a golden autumn conducting some of the world's greatest orchestras in the last 10-15 years. There are happily several great Haitink "vintages" to enjoy across the last 40-50 years, what some of us have been privileged in recent years to witness is the sum of his life's experience.

[ardcarp]

Ought there maybe to be a category for musicians who switch horses in mid-stream and become conductors after (or during) a solo career? Pianists do it, e.g. Barenboim and Ashkenazy, and then there's singers, e.g. Rene Jacobs. Any other takers?