Conductors: late developers vs. early bloomers

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ought there maybe to be a category for musicians who switch horses in mid-stream and become conductors after (or during) a solo career? Pianists do it, e.g. Barenboim and Ashkenazy, and then there's singers, e.g. Rene Jacobs. Any other takers?

Not Barenboim - he trained as a conducting as a teenager alongside his Piano studies, and made his first recordings as a conductor when he was in his twenties - Barbirolli had a (slightly)longer career as a professional 'cellist before he became a conductor.

[ardcarp]

Thanks for the correction.

[richardfinegold]

Yes - there is a missing category no 5 for overrated conductors - and Sir Andrew Davis would be first in it for me .

Simon Rattle? It seems as though none of his talent followed him to Deutchland.

[amateur51]

Simon Rattle? It seems as though none of his talent followed him to Deutchland.

Some of his BPO recordings has not been well reviewed I grant you, but all the performances I've watched/listened to on the Digital Concert Hall suggest that he has matured significantly and is currently in fine form.

[Beef Oven!]

Simon Rattle? It seems as though none of his talent followed him to Deutchland.

I'd concur with that.

I attended some amazing concerts with the CBSO, Nielsen, Sibelius and a few others. Also a really electric Parsifal with the Rotterdam some years back.

But a few years ago, when I attended a couple of his concerts with the Berlin Philharmonic (Bruckner 5 was one), I thought he'd somehow lost some of his sparkle.

Can only talk about the concerts, not sure about CDs and TV broadcasts, but I would say that having listened to his 'finished off' Bruckner 9 from last year, on reflection, it's a disappointment overall.

[Hornspieler]

I'd concur with that.

I attended some amazing concerts with the CBSO, Nielsen, Sibelius and a few others. Also a really electric Parsifal with the Rotterdam some years back.

But a few years ago, when I attended a couple of his concerts with the Berlin Philharmonic (Bruckner 5 was one), I thought he'd somehow lost some of his sparkle.

Can only talk about the concerts, not sure about CDs and TV broadcasts, but I would say that having listened to his 'finished off' Bruckner 9 from last year, on reflection, it's a disappointment overall.

Simon Rattle is a natural trainer and inspirer. Just what the CBSO needed after the doldrums of Rignold and Harold Gray and the disastrous reign of Fremaux and the results were spectacular; in comparison with the state that the orchestra had lapsed into over the previous years, when half the players would have been just as happy putting hub caps on cars at Longbridge as making music.

I know this, because I deputised for some time in 1969 in the vacant principal horn position, whilst Fremaux's decision as to who to appoint was awaited.

When SR was Assistant Conductor in Bournemouth, I was already working for the BBC and was responsible for production of several broadcasts by both the Symphony orchestra and the Sinfonietta.
In both cases, his communication of ideas and firmness of control were very evident at that time.

But the Berlin Players don't need training. If they bother to look at the conductor, it is either out of curiousity or politeness.

What they do need is Box Office receipts and SR has produced exactly that.

HS

[amateur51]

Simon Rattle is a natural trainer and inspirer. Just what the CBSO needed after the doldrums of Rignold and Harold Gray and the disastrous reign of Fremaux and the results were spectacular; in comparison with the state that the orchestra had lapsed into over the previous years, when half the players would have been just as happy putting hub caps on cars at Longbridge as making music.

I know this, because I deputised for some time in 1969 in the vacant principal horn position, whilst Fremaux's decision as to who to appoint was awaited.

When SR was Assistant Conductor in Bournemouth, I was already working for the BBC and was responsible for production of several broadcasts by both the Symphony orchestra and the Sinfonietta.
In both cases, his communication of ideas and firmness of control were very evident at that time.

But the Berlin Players don't need training. If they bother to look at the conductor, it is either out of curiousity or politeness.

What they do need is Box Office receipts and SR has produced exactly that.

HS

His programming has always been a balance between the familiar and the unfamiliar, and it has always been his major draw. The BPO's audience, 'live' and digital, is obviously drawn by it, which is why HS is right

Has his taking over from Gergiev at LSO been confirmed? I hope it happens because London's concert scene needs this combination so much.

[Beef Oven!]

Simon Rattle is a natural trainer and inspirer. Just what the CBSO needed after the doldrums of Rignold and Harold Gray and the disastrous reign of Fremaux and the results were spectacular; in comparison with the state that the orchestra had lapsed into over the previous years, when half the players would have been just as happy putting hub caps on cars at Longbridge as making music.

I know this, because I deputised for some time in 1969 in the vacant principal horn position, whilst Fremaux's decision as to who to appoint was awaited.

When SR was Assistant Conductor in Bournemouth, I was already working for the BBC and was responsible for production of several broadcasts by both the Symphony orchestra and the Sinfonietta.
In both cases, his communication of ideas and firmness of control were very evident at that time.

But the Berlin Players don't need training. If they bother to look at the conductor, it is either out of curiousity or politeness.

What they do need is Box Office receipts and SR has produced exactly that.

HS

An interesting perspective.

I've attended BPO concerts wih Abbado conducting and it all seemed different.

Ditto when I attended a BPO concert with Haitink on the podium.

[amateur51]

An interesting perspective.

I've attended BPO concerts wih Abbado conducting and it all seemed different.

Ditto when I attended a BPO concert with Haitink on the podium.

Does that surprise you?

[Beef Oven!]

Does that surprise you?

That what HS says, is a highly subjective generalisation that shouldn't be applied universally to all BPO gigs? Is that what you mean?

Dunno, hadn't thought of it like that.

Take a bit of trouble to understand what's being said before you post your silly little passive aggressive comments.

[Hornspieler]

Take a bit of trouble to understand what's being said before you post your silly little passive aggressive comments.

Have the courtesy to show a bit more respect for the posts of other message boarders - whether you agree with them or not.

HS

[Stanfordian]

Simon Rattle? It seems as though none of his talent followed him to Deutchland.

I consider Sir Simon to be an inspirational conductor. I go to Berlin each year for a couple of the Berliner Philharmoniker concerts with Sir Simon at the helm and I cannot understand all the vitriol that he suffers. I also have the Berliner Philharmoniker Digital Concert Hall so I get to see everyone of their Berlin concerts. It kind of reminds me of someone that I know who slags Lang Lang off without every having see him play or buy his recordings. But I appeciate that Rattle is not everyones cup of tea.

The late Gunter Wand can do no wrong for me. He came to the public's attention very late in life.

[amateur51]

That what HS says, is a highly subjective generalisation that shouldn't be applied universally to all BPO gigs? Is that what you mean?

Dunno, hadn't thought of it like that.

Take a bit of trouble to understand what's being said before you post your silly little passive aggressive comments.

Why does it apparently surprise you that the BPO sounds different under Abbado, Haitink and Rattle?

[Barbirollians]

From my experience he is a terrific conductor . I tend to prefer him in the repertoire in which he made his name - but I am very fond of his Haydn records in particular .

A friend of mine was taught by one the CBSO violinists at the time of SR's pomp in Birmingham and he was considered to be rightly ruthless at weeding out mediocre players and in restoring the quality of the orchestra and taking it to new heights .

[Roehre]

I'd place Haitink in 1,2 and 4 . He was already a fine conductor in his RCO/LPO days in the 1960s and 1970s (after all one of the great pioneers of the Bruckner and Mahler revival) - learnt to become a very good opera conductor during his Glyndebourne years, became a great Wagner conductor during his spell at the ROH, and has enjoyed (is enjoying) a golden autumn conducting some of the world's greatest orchestras in the last 10-15 years. There are happily several great Haitink "vintages" to enjoy across the last 40-50 years, what some of us have been privileged in recent years to witness is the sum of his life's experience.