Bach (and early keyboard music) on the Piano: thoughts

[Guest]

Following on from my comments on the Goldberg Variations post, I just thought I would ask opinions on this. I am a big fan of early music and love to hear it played on original instruments. However as a pianist and organist I have no problems at all in playing Bach and others on the piano and modern organs. Firstly because I don't have access to a harpsichord or a baroque organ tuned to Niedhardt temperament but also because I think, especially with Bach, that the music is universal and Bach played on the piano takes on an entirely different character to the same pieces played on a harpsichord (Another example is Glenn Gould's CD of Byrd, Gibbons, Sweelinck etc on the piano) Seeing how Bach recycled pieces for wildly different instruments (Double Violin Concerto and Concerto for Two Harpsichords!), I find it hard to understand why people likethe late Gustav Leonhardt get very angry when people play Bach on the piano? The late and old Carlo Curley also mentions an episode in his autobiography also when an organ teacher and his pupils stormed out of a recital in Denmark when he played an organ transcription of Air on a G String.

I know Bach was not that convinced by Silbermann's early Pianoforte but I can't help feeling he would have rejoiced in the power and range of today's concert grand and one can't help but speculate on what he would have written if he had access to one in his time! Anyway I would be interested to hear from purists about this topic, especially when it would mean the limiting of playing these pieces to a fortunate few.

[Serial_Apologist]

Following on from my comments on the Goldberg Variations post, I just thought I would ask opinions on this. I am a big fan of early music and love to hear it played on original instruments. However as a pianist and organist I have no problems at all in playing Bach and others on the piano and modern organs. Firstly because I don't have access to a harpsichord or a baroque organ tuned to Niedhardt temperament but also because I think, especially with Bach, that the music is universal and Bach played on the piano takes on an entirely different character to the same pieces played on a harpsichord (Another example is Glenn Gould's CD of Byrd, Gibbons, Sweelinck etc on the piano) Seeing how Bach recycled pieces for wildly different instruments (Double Violin Concerto and Concerto for Two Harpsichords!), I find it hard to understand why people like Gustav Leonhardt got very angry when people played Bach on the piano? The late and old Carlo Curley also mentions an episode in his autobiography also when an organ teacher and his pupils stormed out of a recital in Denmark when he played an organ transcription of Air on a G String.

I know Bach was not that convinced by Silbermann's early Pianoforte but I can't help feeling he would have rejoiced in the power and range of today's concert grand and one can't help but speculate on what he would have written if he had access to one in his time! Anyway I would be interested to hear from purists about this topic, especially when it would mean the limiting of playing these pieces to a fortunate few.

I'm sure you're right about the "universality" of Bach's idiom, but tbh I prefer hearing for example the Goldberg Variations on harpsichord because this would have been the soundworld Bach would have envisaged the work in, and for me at any rate the contrapuntal structures sound clearer than on a piano, possibly for the same reason.

[Thropplenoggin]

Interesting post, Mattbod. I hope that the board's Early Music lovers will share their responses anon.

One thing I would say is that, if you want to see a live recital of the Goldbergs - and I do - then it's more likely to be on a modern grand piano. The Wigmore Hall has it twice in the coming months: Andras Schiff in December (don't bother looking, it's already sold out) and Alexei Volodin in January (tickets still available). I don't know Volodin, so any opinions on his merits would be much appreciated. My point being: harpsichord recitals seem relatively rare, unless I'm just not looking in the right places.

[Richard Tarleton]

I'd describe myself as an amateur enthusiast rather than an expert on the early music front (though with a more expert knowledge of early English and Spanish plucked instrumental music) and I have to say where the Goldbergs are concerned I would not be without either. I got to know them through piano versions by both Schiff and Hewitt, I've heard them performed live both ways, once only each - on the harpsichord (in a cathedral acoustic), and on the piano in an intimate and moving recital by Angela Hewitt. I have both piano and harpsichord versions on CD, and tend to ring the changes when I fancy the Goldbergs. At present my default version is probably one by David Wright on harpsichord.

As a classical guitarist I am not shy about Bach on instruments other than those for which the music was originally intended, and indeed in one or two cases this is either not entirely clear (BWV 998) or else Bach recycled works for different instruments - as Mattbod says - eg BWV 1006/1006a (violin/lute) and BWV 29 uses the same material. I've played movements from the cello suites though have largely given that up these days as they sound better on the cello. [ed. though the guitar can fill out harmonies that are merely implied on the bowed instruments, thus shedding a slightly different light on the works....] In my amateur and humble opinion Bach's music transcends the medium, I'm a big tent Bach fan. I await the purist counterblast

[BBMmk2]

I love hearing JSB's music in any kind of idiom. So long as it is suited and in, most important, good taste, re style and etc. I have heard Goldberg played by Canadian Brass, to very good effect, but even here, I don't think that these top class musicians had the feeling of the piece right?

[Mattbod]

Interesting point about the contrapuntal clarity of the harpsichord but a good pianist can bring this out too. Angela Hewitt also says that some Bach fugues can sound monotonous on the harpsichord where on a piano you can lighten the touch on some of the beats to increase expression. I don't think you can post youtube links here but if you do a search for Bach Toccata in Gminor Angela Hewitt and Karl Richter Toccata G moll you can compare the same piece played on both instruments. I mention this piece as it is one that Angela singles out in here CD notes (Bach Toccatas Hyperion) as one where the piano can add texture over a harpsichord.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It is often claimed that composers would have welcomed modern instruments, and I think this is probably true in many instances. But in the case of Bach, he showed little interest in the gravecembalo con piano e forte. Perhaps, therefore, he should be treated differently.

Having said that, the sustaining power of the piano has an advantage over the harpsichord in slower contrapuntal music. Perhaps this is why Bach appeared to prefer playing the clavichord. The latter also is capable of dynamic variation, unlike the harpsichord.

[doversoul1]

I have no theory or opinion but I simply like the sound of the old instruments (harpsichord or clavichord) in Baroque music better than the piano. I find the sound of the modern grand piano far too polished and the music seems to lose the point. To me, Scarlatti and Rameau become rather ordinary on the piano. I am positively put off by Bach’s harpsichord concerto played on the piano. It seems to accentuate the out-of-placeness of the piano. Having said all this, I fully appreciate some of the old (pre-HIPP) recordings of Bach’s works. I think there is something in Bach’s music that makes everyone wants to play on their own instrument. Once upon a time, I tried to play the ‘tune’ of Rondo from the second orchestral suite on the shamisen.

[ardcarp]

Bach on the piano:

Hewitt

Schiff

Barenboim

Just a personal opinion, of course.

[amateur51]

Interesting point about the contrapuntal clarity of the harpsichord but a good pianist can bring this out too. Angela Hewitt also says that some Bach fugues can sound monotonous on the harpsichord where on a piano you can lighten the touch on some of the beats to increase expression. I don't think you can post youtube links here but if you do a search for Bach Toccata in Gminor Angela Hewitt and Karl Richter Toccata G moll you can compare the same piece played on both instruments. I mention this piece as it is one that Angela singles out in here CD notes (Bach Toccatas Hyperion) as one where the piano can add texture over a harpsichord.

Hello Mattbod! You certainly can post youtube links here to illustrate music, performances, etc etc. You just copy the www. address in the box at the top and then paste it in here

[Richard Barrett]

Karl Richter

Although it must be said that the kinds of "modern" harpsichord Karl Richter played also didn't sound much like the instruments of Bach's time (or copies thereof) as played by Leonhardt and his successors in the historically-informed performance movement.

It isn't completely true that Bach wasn't convinced by Silbermann's instruments: he declared that the later improved ones met with his complete approval.

Many people prefer to hear Bach's music played on instruments other than the ones he wrote it for or was familiar with, and I don't mind it myself, but I think to infer from one's own tastes what Bach "would have preferred" is silly. Playing his music on the piano, or the harp, or the synthesizer, doesn't need that kind of spurious justification.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It is often claimed that composers would have welcomed modern instruments

Well - certain "modern instruments", perhaps: I frequently found that some people who make the "I'm sure Bach would've welcomed a chance to hear his Music played on the modern ... " are the ones who quail at the thought of his wanting to hear it played on Electric Guitars, Synthesizers, Saxophones and Drum Kits. In other words, there are "purists" antagonistic to Historically Informed Performance Practices quite as extreme in their set minds as there are those enthusiastic towards them.

Having said that, the sustaining power of the piano has an advantage over the harpsichord in slower contrapuntal music. Perhaps this is why Bach appeared to prefer playing the clavichord. The latter also is capable of dynamic variation, unlike the harpsichord.

Exactly - this is why many of us feel that, if Bach had had access to a modern Steinway Grand, he would have relished writing Music specifically for it, not simply plumped a copy of the English Suites on the Music stand and played that.

On the whole, I prefer to hear the timbres that Bach wrote for; but I wouldn't wish to be without Gould or Fischer. And then there's Bach/Busoni, or Bach/Stevenson, or Bach/Kurtag ....

[MickyD]

I think I've mentioned it before, but though an advocate for Bach (and others of his time) on the harpsichord, paradoxically it was the excitement of Walter (Wendy) Carlos' early moog synthesizer treatments in the 1960s and 70s which suddenly opened my ears to baroque music. In my case it certainly proves that Bach can touch people when played well on pretty much anything.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

not only the keyboard works on piano, but the various transcriptions for piano [esp. in the Hyperion series] of Organ works &c ... and the Goldberg Variations played by a small string ensemble is also rather tasty .... i also am very fond of the Schneiderhan Richter Violin and Harpsichord Sonatas ... no one could accuse Schneiderhan of being HIPP but wonderful nonetheless ...

i find early Landowska can be rather hard on the ears, and prefer piano on the whoile ... it very much depends on the sound quality of the harpsichord [some are dreadfully tinny]

[MickyD]

For anyone who needs convincing of the merits of Bach on the harpsichord, try and give Kenneth Gilbert's wonderful "48" a listen - this is how it should sound in my opinion! Sadly I think it may no longer be available, but here's a taster...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMgCYUJBuo&list=FLBc5HbFSu_TDvzxC8-xga4Q&index=33