Vinyl & turntables

[richardfinegold]

#46 Thropplenoggin. As a confirmed vinyl addict, I strongly recommend that you get a turntable and give it a go. In my experience cheap turntables rumble and may not even go round at the correct speed. On the other hand, I cant imagine it is worth paying over ten grand! I have a Thorens TD 3001 BC and an SME arm, both are now quite old but serve me just fine. My cartridges (the SME has a detachable headshell, so I have two) are Goldrings, one with a mono stylus and the other with a stereo one. You can play mono LPs with a stereo stylus, but they pick up more crackle.

I freely admit that CD is clearly a superior medium in many respects. You get more music on the discs, they never wear out and they take up less space. However, I collect vinyl and the sound is good enough for me.

Well worth seeking the advice of your local hifi specialist shop. I dont know about your area, but I can strongly recommend Audio Destination, in Tiverton, Devon, just down the road from me: Mike Rogers is resident guru and he knows his stuff.

Its also worth pointing out that, judging from the bids on ebay, the majority of LPs are almost worthless, but a minority are worth a very surprisingly large amount. This is particularly true of early stereo Columbia, HMV and Decca. So if you are lucky enough to get your hands on good copies, you must have decent equipment to play them. With good equipment you can play an LP dozens of times without damaging it, but with the wrong set up you can wreck it with one playing. Interestingly, you do more damage by setting the tracking weight too light than too heavy.

And apologies if you know all this stuff already, but it is an enthusiasm of mine and increasingly, vinyl is disappearing into history and people dont really know how to handle it any more.

One last thought: I have a Keith Monks cleaning machine and I always clean LPs as soon as I get them. Such machines are expensive to buy, but you may track down a shop that offers a cleaning service: Fine Records in Hove used to do this for a pound a disc. A clean on the Monks makes a huge difference to the sound quality and you can get through a side without constantly having to de-clagg the stylus.

The issue of vinyl versus digital is a complicated one, and there are advocates for each medium that will spread the gospel of their favorite with evangelical
fervor.
I was convinced over a decade ago to dip the toe back into vinyl. I started with a beginner Project deck, then had a Rega p5 (since discontinued), and now have a Clearaudio Concept with their moving coil cartridge. My conclusions about vinyl vs. digital are as follows:

1) Digital Playback has improved tremendously in the past decade. A great sounding DAC can now be had for under $1000, and in many cases for as little as 1/5
that price, and can seriously upgrade the sound of an inexpensive CD or DVD player as well as Computer Audio. The gap between digital and vinyl is vanishingly small now IMO. If you can afford uber expensive digital equipment, then there probably is no gap .
2) Unlike digital, when it comes to turntables, I think that it does require a fair amount of expense to realize the benefits. My Project budget table had all kinds of issues, most seriously with stability. Even after I built a special isolation shelf for it (that worked well with subsequent tables) the slightest room vibration--such as a sneeze--would be enough to cause it to skip. It was a fragile table in many other respects as well. The Rega was a clear improvement, but the mc of the Clearaudio revealed yet more music in the grooves.
3) What will you play on it? Most of the records I see in second shops are the same low quality, badly pressed lps that caused people to ditch the medium in the first place, only now they are 40 years older, used, and have been stored God knows where in the interim. If you really hanker after a certain lp you will probably have to buy it un inspected over the internet, and I had several that arrived in unplayable condition.
4) The vinyl ritual--cleaning, drying, getting the static electricity out of your system--if you have tolerance for that sort of thing that is greater than mine, Throps, then you won't find it to be an obstacle.

I have afew treasured lps that I like to play, but for me, vinyl will remain an exotic experience, a bit of spice for the digital life.

[Flay]

Isn't shellac fascinating? I have just read the Wiki entry on it. A natural product with an enormous spectrum of uses.

And yes it is soluble in meths and ethanol.

[Thropplenoggin]

The issue of vinyl versus digital is a complicated one, and there are advocates for each medium that will spread the gospel of their favorite with evangelical
fervor.
I was convinced over a decade ago to dip the toe back into vinyl. I started with a beginner Project deck, then had a Rega p5 (since discontinued), and now have a Clearaudio Concept with their moving coil cartridge. My conclusions about vinyl vs. digital are as follows:

1) Digital Playback has improved tremendously in the past decade. A great sounding DAC can now be had for under $1000, and in many cases for as little as 1/5
that price, and can seriously upgrade the sound of an inexpensive CD or DVD player as well as Computer Audio. The gap between digital and vinyl is vanishingly small now IMO. If you can afford uber expensive digital equipment, then there probably is no gap .
2) Unlike digital, when it comes to turntables, I think that it does require a fair amount of expense to realize the benefits. My Project budget table had all kinds of issues, most seriously with stability. Even after I built a special isolation shelf for it (that worked well with subsequent tables) the slightest room vibration--such as a sneeze--would be enough to cause it to skip. It was a fragile table in many other respects as well. The Rega was a clear improvement, but the mc of the Clearaudio revealed yet more music in the grooves.
3) What will you play on it? Most of the records I see in second shops are the same low quality, badly pressed lps that caused people to ditch the medium in the first place, only now they are 40 years older, used, and have been stored God knows where in the interim. If you really hanker after a certain lp you will probably have to buy it un inspected over the internet, and I had several that arrived in unplayable condition.
4) The vinyl ritual--cleaning, drying, getting the static electricity out of your system--if you have tolerance for that sort of thing that is greater than mine, Throps, then you won't find it to be an obstacle.

I have afew treasured lps that I like to play, but for me, vinyl will remain an exotic experience, a bit of spice for the digital life.

Much indebted to yourself and others on this thread for these lengthy replies. I especially appreciate the comparisons between a) your three turntables, and b) vinyl vs. digital.

I expect it makes more sense for me to get a decent amp and CD player in the first instance, then a decent DAC. The turntable (and associated headaches) is an expense I think I can forgo, especially since sourcing and cleaning vinyl would prove such a labour of love. After all, all I want to do is to listen to music in better quality than I do currently.

[umslopogaas]

Actually, sourcing vinyl isnt so difficult. My local hifi shop, Audio Destination in Tiverton, sells quite a wide range. They have secondhand discs from the LP era at between three and ten quid each. They also have new discs, both classical and pop.

Some of these are reissues from Germany of classic recordings from the fifties, sixties and seventies. For example, an original copy of Decca's 1958 SXL 2012 Grieg's Peer Gynt suite cond. Fjeldstad will set you back a few hundred quid if you can find one. But you can buy an exact replica, made in Germany, for £25. I'm not sure why you would though, unless you must have that performance and it was never issued on CD. The original will continue to be worth a lot of money and may go up in value, but the modern replica is unlikely to appreciate.

What I find interesting, and difficult to understand, is that AD also sell brand new recordings (pop and jazz) on LP. Presumably the musicians who perform on them prefer the sound of vinyl to CD. Given that you pay more for less music and its a much more fragile medium, the only reason I can think of for buying them is that they must sound preferable to some ears.

I agree that both LP and CD have fanatical proponents, but I try to take a balanced view. I have no doubt that CDs are the superior medium and I regularly buy them: apart from any other reason, you cant play vinyl in the car. However, properly cleaned LPs in good condition sound just fine to me, and I collect them whenever I can find them. Which isnt often these days, supplies are drying up. Unlike some lucky souls, I have never found anything worth buying in charity shops. What I need is for a few collectors like me to shuffle off and have their bemused executors call in a dealer to make an offer for all these old discs.

[salymap]

Hmm, I dont do 78s, but if I did I dont think I'd dare play something that rare! Cleaning a 78 with a damp cloth wouldnt do it any harm, but the Monks machine is more effective, for two reasons. It uses a 1:1 mixture of industrial meths and distilled water, which is more effective than water in removing the dirt, and it uses a specially constructed brush that really gets into the grooves and scrubs them clean. One word of caution: the meths cleaning fluid works fine on vinyl LPs, but 78s were made of shellac, and I dont know how that would be affected by alcohol. Ask a chemist before you risk dissolving the grooves off some priceless relic.

It's an esrly LP record unslop. as it proudly states. Wonderful sleeve with coats of arms of the late George VI ands Queen Mary, HMV ofcourse.

[umslopogaas]

Thanks salymap. I've got some of those HMV LPs in their imperial finery, they dont make 'em like that any more!

[Nick Armstrong]

....nothing on CD, DVD or anything I've heard beats my 10" recording of Boult and the LSO, BLP1001, playing the RVW 6th symphony.

It leaps from the disc, I've compared it with the same performance on everything else, they all lose something. And that's not nostalgia, it's fact.

Really interesting saly! Fascinating that it's such a clear difference... But then richardfinegold's comments (esp on the problems of setting about collecting LPs now) are thought-provoking too.

That said it seems one can get hold of your Boult disc, saly:



for £3 on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vaughan-Williams-Symphony-No-6-Adrian-Boult-LSO-BLP1001-10-LP-/310411040099#ht_1992wt_725

I'd love to listen to it, to hear what you mean....

[Beef Oven!]

Really interesting saly! Fascinating that it's such a clear difference... But then richardfinegold's comments (esp on the problems of setting about collecting LPs now) are thought-provoking too.

That said it seems one can get hold of your Boult disc, saly:



for £3 on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vaughan-Williams-Symphony-No-6-Adrian-Boult-LSO-BLP1001-10-LP-/310411040099#ht_1992wt_725

I'd love to listen to it, to hear what you mean....

By the look of the picture, I'd say this version includes a full English breakfast being fried through the latter movements (in particular)!

[Dave2002]

Really interesting saly! Fascinating that it's such a clear difference... But then richardfinegold's comments (esp on the problems of setting about collecting LPs now) are thought-provoking too.

That said it seems one can get hold of your Boult disc, saly:

for £3 on ebay


I'd love to listen to it, to hear what you mean....

Put your money where your mouth is. £6.99 inc. postage and it's yours!

[salymap]

Rob Cowan explained to me that Boult recorded all the RVW up to date with the LPO but the scherzo of the 6th was changed and the LPO busy, so this was with the LSO.

£3? I thought it would keep me in my old age

[Nick Armstrong]

Put your money where your mouth is. £6.99 inc. postage and it's yours!

NFD mate.

(Politely: I lack the requisite deck upon which to play the item... )

[Beef Oven!]

NFD mate.

(Politely: I lack the requisite deck upon which to play the item... )

Aren't Naim fun with their £300+ phono stages!?

[Dave2002]

NFD mate.

(Politely: I lack the requisite deck upon which to play the item... )

NFD: sounds rude to me. I can imagine!

Maybe you have other mates who could play it for you.

[Nick Armstrong]

NFD: sounds rude to me. I can imagine!

Maybe you have other mates who could play it for you.

Nah... I'll save the pennies and go to some more concerts, I think

[Dave2002]

Nah... I'll save the pennies and go to some more concerts, I think

I thought you might. Enjoy!